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Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpose?

 
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:59 PM
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Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpose?

Working on a friends 700 Rem BDL, 270 Win. Gun's perhaps 4 years old, maybe 5 from date of manufacture. Perhaps 100 rounds down the barrel. Purchased new by my friend.

Groups with factory Rem Corelok ammo were miserable, perhaps 2" at best, off a shooting rest, and with experienced shooters. The trigger is not the best, but the rest negates poor trigger, and to a certain extent scope. Scope is a Nikon Prostaff. Not fabulous, but not crap either....

I "borrow" the gun to hand load something special to remedy the problem. First debate is whether to float the barrel or not. I decide to float. No, I did not bed the action. Lot more work, though I might do that too, if needed. But I contest that floating and/or bedding is not the issue...

I measure the base to ogive measurement using the Hornady Lock-N-Load OAL device (its not really OAL, but that's what they call it) with several common 270 bullets and I am shocked. The throat is at least 1/2" I cannot seat130gr Sierra Game Kings, Hornady Interlocks, Berger VLDs, or Nosler Ballistic tips anywhere CLOSE to the rifling. We are talking 300 thou jump, in order to get at least .277 of bullet (usual recommended min seating depth) in the neck.

This gun has Weatherby style throat. (We are working on his 340 Wby as well).

So I load some Nosler Ballistic tips and some Sierra Gamekings to a pretty random COAL, that put about diameter (.277) in the necks, spread out a test series of H4831SC in each and went shooting. (cases were well prepped, sized down 3 thou, primer pockets reamed, flash holes reamed etc)

Results: Groups were better. But showed no predictable pattern. About 1.5 - 1.75" 3 shot groups. Across both bullets and all powder ranges. Makes me think I have a variable that I am not accounting for.

So a couple of questions and points to debate:

1) In a long throated gun, particularly a 270, does anyone have a bullet that we should try? The magazine seems to be generous -- we could seat bullets longer, but I am running out of neck before I run out of magazine.

2) Why is this happening? I have loaded for many Rem BDL's, including at least one other 270. All had throats that I could measure (some the old way, with a fired case, and smoked bullet, or a lightly crimped bullet). This one is LONG. I have a theory, and it troubles me: The lawyers at Remington said to the engineers; "You need to make it harder to blow up the gun". And the engineers, knowing what sorts of loads are in books and on the internet, said "If we make the gun with more free bore, even excessive charges will never produce dangerous pressure, since it will be impossible to load to the lands". I admit, conspiracy theory. But a couple Google searches reveal we do not have the only long throated BDL here.....

OK, so your thoughts????
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:34 PM
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Re: Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpo

I have a Remington 700 bdl 270 that I bought in the late 90's that is the same way. I tried to seat my 130 BT to the lands and the bullet would be all the way out of the case. I ended up seating the bullet into the case enough to fit in the magazine and to ensure that I had enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place. I then fiddled with the powder charge to get the desired accuracy and was thankfully able to meet my expectations. I did find that a Lee factory crimp die helped to improve the overall consistency of my loads and since this is a hunting rifle and the rounds would be handled roughly it made me feel better to crimp them. You mileage may vary though. I however have not been able to get any other bullet besides the 130gr Nosler BT to shoot worth a crap, good thing I like them for deer.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:52 PM
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Re: Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpo

Its called freebore. It will lower pressures in factory ammo and allow reloaders to get more velocity by working their loads higher. Most think it degrades accuracy. If you know how to load for it its great! Use 4350 or 4831 and a 215 or win mag primer. Use very hard bullets, I typically use Barnes, any thin skinned bullet typically will not shoot worth a darn. Try 140 through the 160ish gr bullets and see which work best with your barrel/twist rate. Make sure the barrel is perfectly clean before switching to these bullets.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:52 PM
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Re: Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpo

According to SAAMI Specs. .300 thousandths is max freebore including the lead angle of less than 1/2 degree.

The 270 was in reality the first magnum with pressures to match. So yes they did it on purpose.

Freebore is not the enemy.

Bullets like the partition have a long bearing surface and will improve the neck to bullet Engagement
when seated to magazine length.

J E CUSTOM
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:19 PM
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Re: Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpo

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
According to SAAMI Specs. .300 thousandths is max freebore including the lead angle of less than 1/2 degree.

The 270 was in reality the first magnum with pressures to match. So yes they did it on purpose.

Freebore is not the enemy.

Bullets like the partition have a long bearing surface and will improve the neck to bullet Engagement
when seated to magazine length.

J E CUSTOM

So are you suggesting that if indeed the freebore (or throat as I refer to it) is longer than .300", it is out of SAAMI specs?

That also is interesting, though does not make much of a difference really. With regards to legal implications -- a gun that is outside of SAAMI specs, but actually is "less dangerous" than SAAMI specs could never be held up to a product liability lawsuit.

Remington could wander outside of SAAMI specs so long as they have good evidence that their non-conformance to SAAMI results in a less "dangerous" gun.

Albeit, less accurate....

.................................................. .................................................. .....................

Topic long free bore/throat. I agree that a bullet with a flat base would give more seating. I need to get some Barnes bullets and see how they react. I was not aware that perhaps the long throats in 270 win had been there for a long time. Maybe, this is an issue that has been there forever, but only noted as more efficient means of detecting the distance to the rifling has been available.....
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:24 PM
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Re: Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpo

My best friend has an old Rem 700 .270 Win, that he's had since new (15 years now). It has the same long free-bore in the throat.

Like JE said, freebore is not your enemy, and can be your friend if you know how to load for it.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:05 AM
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Re: Anyone deal w/700 Rem w/long throat? New gun, not shot out. Rem do this on purpo

I've been reading a lot more, all over the web, places like TFL, Highroad, etc...

Seems my suspicions are common that gun makers have lengthened the throat/freebore in recent years.

And I am not alone in having trouble with accuracy.
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