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Allen magnum

 
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  #15  
Old 03-27-2008, 03:59 PM
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Location: bakersfield ca.
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Lightvarmint, I doubt your type will keep a guy like Kirby "guessing". He probably doesn't need our want your business. I have never met Kirby so maybe I shouldn't speak for him, but I'm pretty sure he is like a lot of honest folks who are in business for themselves, doing a job they enjoy, turning out a great product and developing relationships with other honest people.

The thing I find most frustrating in business is providing great service, a great product, good communication and then being phased out when somebody decides a dollar is more important than the product and the relationship. This is all to common in our society, me me me , I I I .

I understand cost is important and if somebody can't afford my work I'll gladly refer them elsewhere, but not to have my creativity duplicated.

Mike

Mike
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  #16  
Old 03-27-2008, 04:30 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
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Hmmmmm, I just can't resist.

Intellectual property is protected. Dealing in software and innovative application of software plus some specialty hardware for agriculture the idea, design and manufacture are all protected beginning with the idea.

The problem is enforcing the intellectual property rights. In my small area of involvement i have no problem. It it gets to the point of push and shove I just offer the opportunity for a short walk out behind the nearest spud cellar. They can bring what ever weapon they like which is usually a fist or two. Me, I bring my buddy Pietro. Never had a problem and never had a visit behind the cellar.

I was thinking where this thread has drifted. Here's my thoughts. If one took all of the best machinists in the world and assigned them to machine a specific part to some specific dimensions, you'd get as many pieces as you had machinists all built exactly the same.

Now, take those same machinists and have them build a rifle. You wouldn't get clones of the drawing.

There's a thing called 'touch', some have it some don't. There in lies the difference.

Recall the story about the violin auction and the "masters hand".

I was watching something on the PBS called "Celtic Women". A dang good looking and very talented blond young lady played the very same selection of tunes that my daughter has played for the public. The girl on TV was perfect in everything that she did. I was glued to the TV. It was very enjoyable to see and hear.

However, my daughter, who by the way is as good looking as the TV girl (had twins ~2 mo. ago), but with long red hair, has made tears come to grown men's eyes, on every occasion that she played those same tunes. She has the "touch". It can't be defined and the only evidence of it is in the final product.
I percieve there are several smiths on the forum that have that touch. Each has it differently, its their own. And guess what, each knows he has it, surprise! But you never hear them mention it.

My hat's off to those of you that have it and just stay humble.

To ramble on just a bit more, I have a overbore cartridge that shoots a long very heavy for bore bullet at some bodasious velocities that out shoots every 222 REM 40X and Hart balleled Hart sleeved bench rest rifle "I" have ever owned. I only wish I had the shooters touch to match up with the builder's touch.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.;)
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  #17  
Old 03-27-2008, 05:29 PM
Lightvarmint
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post
That is what is known as intellectual theft. While it is not unlawful, it is dishonest.

Kirby goes to a lot of trouble and expense to test his cartridges and the rifles that will shoot them. There is a lot of hidden costs that most people don't see like testing different barrels and different brass but people like me and Dick have a reasonable understanding of it. When you steal his ideas and have someone else build a rifle you have failed to pay for Kirby's hidden costs and have cheated him.

The chief reason I don't have Kirby build more of my rifles is I am just really paranoid about shipping my guns around. If a person does good work for you then you should show appreciation by customer loyalty.

Finally, if there lots of gunsmiths who can build great long range rifles around why don't you see their names mentioned when hunting season rolls around and pictures are posted and proof is laid out for all to see.
I see the gunsmiths listed all the time for instance, Darryl Holland, Greg Tannel, Jim Borden, Shawn Carlock just to mention a few...... Ever hear of these guys? I notice them because I am probably looking at a larger scope of information than you. I am sure Kirby does great work, but if he starts escelating his prices when others don't (as mentioned in another posting), then you can get similar work done for lesser money elsewhere.

James
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  #18  
Old 03-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Lightvarmint
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by piutemike View Post
Lightvarmint, I doubt your type will keep a guy like Kirby "guessing". He probably doesn't need our want your business. I have never met Kirby so maybe I shouldn't speak for him, but I'm pretty sure he is like a lot of honest folks who are in business for themselves, doing a job they enjoy, turning out a great product and developing relationships with other honest people.

The thing I find most frustrating in business is providing great service, a great product, good communication and then being phased out when somebody decides a dollar is more important than the product and the relationship. This is all to common in our society, me me me , I I I .

I understand cost is important and if somebody can't afford my work I'll gladly refer them elsewhere, but not to have my creativity duplicated.

Mike

Mike
He won't get any of my business, because I have a smith on retainer who does all my hunting work. I obtain the components, drive to the shop and he does it all while I wait. He does a fantastic job and his chamberings always shoot in the low .1s and some even in the .0xx range. I can't expect anyone else to do do it while I wait so why should I even consider going somewhere else? On my bench guns, I use a different smith who specializes in the actions that I use and he was also the guy who tutored me when I started shooting benchrest in the early 90's.

The only kind of non-benchrest work I get done now is some chambering to replace worn barrels or to try a new caliber, bead blasting and maybe a muzzle brake or two since I already have all the stocks, actions and bolts that I need. I normally get three bolts with my custom hunting guns (06, win mag, 378 wthby) to prevent having to get another gun built. I just swap bolts and barrels. I have designed my own reamers and had them built (along with gages) for the calibers I use and keep them to use again when a barrel runs/burns out. I like to maintain quality control over chamber sizes.

FWIW, I was shooting the 338 Snyper (now the 338 Lapua) and its variants long before Lapua offered the brass and before it was named the Lapua. I still have a bunch of the original non-headstamped brass. So, since I paid for the testing and had the reamers built, would that mean that anyone who got a reamer or gage after me stole my idea........ NO not at all! It just means that they want one like it.

What I am gleaning from your posting is, if you are not the first one to design reamers and test an idea then that would be stealing? Only original ideas and associated equipment are not stealing?

I sincerely doubt that Kirby was the first to tinker with all the cases he has chosen to market and I know he would not do that if he thought it was stealing. He is merely improving on an already existing idea.

If that is your assertion and you believe it to be true, then someone has stolen some of my ideas and work.

James
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  #19  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 1,014
Quote:
because I have a smith on retainer who does all my hunting work.
Do you keep him guessing??????

Quote:
He does a fantastic job and his chamberings always shoot in the low .1s and some even in the .0xx range.
Do you have a truck for sale???


Quote:
If that is your assertion and you believe it to be true, then someone has stolen some of my ideas and work.
Let me know who to write the check to.:confused::confused:
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  #20  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:55 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: bakersfield ca.
Posts: 126
Lightvarmint, You missed my point. I am not suprised. My post said nothing about stealing. I hope your smith on retainer that always builds guns in the .1s and 0x while you stand there and wait doesn't raise his prices. You would then have to find another smith to put on retainer and build guns for a cheaper price while you stand there and wait.

Or

Remain loyal to the smith who took care of you for years and understand he has the right and the skills to raise his prices. You will pay a few more bucks, the smith will be happy, the finished product will be exactly what you asked for and you will be happy.

Get it?

Last edited by piutemike; 03-27-2008 at 10:29 PM.
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  #21  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:45 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,796
LightVarmint,

Wow, Seems I am getting accused of and hammered for things that are just a comment from someone that has no idea what I do in my business.

You seem to be awful aggetated with me, sounds familiar, sounds very familiar to discussions I have just had lately with a couple guys....... Interesting.

Anyway, I have never once claimed to be the best smith in the country, I have never claimed I build rifles better then any other top quality smith. You have no idea what I charge so your comments are simply uneducated at best, just curious why you make them as aggressively as you do. Have I wronged you somehow? If so, send me a PM and we can talk it over and straighten things out. IF your just making blind comments about me, please stop, you know nothing of what you talk about concerning me or how I run my business.

As far as the list of smiths you list, I have worked with all of them, learned from a couple of them how to build rifles, good friends with another and order alot of parts from all of them. You could contact every one of them and ask them if they know Kirby Allen and I know for a fact that all would have nothing bad at all to say about me because of our dealings.

I hold that same respect for each of these men and many more. Being in good standing with men like this tells me all I need to know about my business and products, the neysayers mean nothing to me.

Even more important then this are my customers. Every smith will say his customers are the best in the world, I am certainly no different. I take alot of time with my customers, get to know them, hold each one with the greatest respect and do my damnest to build them the finest product I can. I also do my damnest to make them what will serve their needs best. This is generally after many hours of conversations and many dozen e-mails so I can be sure to get them exactly what they want and what they need. Often times, they do not know what they need or want. By the time we are done working over their rifle project on paper, not only do they know what they want better, but I do as well and can get them what they want.

In the end, My once customer has now become my friend. I do not see my customers as customers, I See them as my friends and not just until the rifles ship but for life. As such, I take every rifle build very personally. This can result in taking longer then some smiths out there but thats the way I do things.

The men you list are much the same way which is why I respect them as much as I do.

As far as just getting some of my cases and getting your own reamer made, yes you can certainly do that, I can not stop you in any way. But I refuse to sit here and let you tell me that my ideas are not original.

Who made a 257 or 6.5mm on a necked down and blown out 338 RUM case? Who else is using 156 gr ULD RBBT 25 cal bullets driven to 3350 fps with a BC of .820?

Who else made a 270 on a necked down and blown out 7mm RUM case. Who else started using a 169.5 gr ULD RBBT and a 195 gr ULD RBBT in 270 cal with a BC of .740 and .920 respectively driven to 3400 and 3200 fps respectively.

True, some have necked the Lapua to 7mm but who combined that with a 200 gr 7mm bullet with a BC of .90 and a muzzle velocity of 3250 to 3350 fps depending on barrel length.

Who took a 338 Lapua and necked it up to 375 cal with a blown out case? I am sure there are some out there but its not common.

Most of my projects have been in direct cooperation with Richard Graves who made the bullets which made my wildcats truely special and I fully admit that other conventional chambering also perform very well when the rifles re built for use of these bullets.

That said, I Designed my wildcats to produce the highest level of performance ballistically and terminally then any other chambering in their caliber family yet still be practical to use for big game rifles and also be consistant and accurate while not skimping on shear performance. If you think this is easy or cheap, you are sadly mistaken.

If you look at the 25 cal rounds, the next biggest 25 cal round is the 25 RUM. My 257 AM will match and even slightly exceed the performance of the 25 RUM. It also does this in a shorter case design so it can be squeazed into shorter receivers then demanded for the full length 25 RUM and still has a 4-5 grain powder capacity advantage.

The 270 AM will drive a 169.5 gr ULD RBBT roughly 100 fps faster then a 7mm RUM will drive a 162 gr bullet and with a sizable BC advantage as well.

The 7mm AM will top the 7mm RUM but 150 to 200 fps depending on bullet weight and barrel length.

The 300 AX will top the 300 RUM but the same 150 to 200 fps and will top the 30-378 by 50 to 75 fps with roughly 10 grains less powder.

The 338 AX will again add 175 to 225 fps over the 338 RUM. It will top the 338-300 RUM by 100 fps easily. It will in most cases outperform the 338-378 or 338-41g Rigby by 50-75 fps with again, around 10 grains less powder.

The 375 AX will top the 375 RUM by 150 fps and the 278 Wby by 50-75 fps, again in a much shorter design with around 10 grains less powder.

The 338 AM will do a couple things. One, with the right cases, it will offer nearly 100 fps more velocity then the 338 Sniper Tac, 338 Xtreme, 338 Big Baer or 338-408 Improved with top pressure loads. The reason, because its the only one of the bunch that relocates the shoulder location to increase the length of the case body which offers a siginficant increase in powder capcity.

OR

You can load to the exact same performance of these other rounds but get the same performance with significantly less chamber pressure which only adds to case life and barrel life compared to these other chamberings.

Same can be said for the 375 AM and the 410 AM.

Who has taken the 408 and necked it up to 458 cal? Who has taken it up to 50 cal?

Your comments about me not having any original ideas is rather silly.

Have I been doing this as long as most of the well estabilised smiths, none, I am a yong man. By the time I am the age of Mr. Holland, Mr. Tannel or Mr. Borden, will I have achieved what these men have done, I can not say but I am sure my name will be much more commonly known.

I have been doing this professionally full time for 4 years. To some like yourself, that is something that would disqualify my name from your list of top smiths, that is fine by me. First couple years I started doing this full time I was happy to get 20 rifles out a year. For the last three years I have pushed 100 rifles shipped every year. This year I will break 100 rifles by a fair amount. I am coming up on 400 rifles shipped to customers and I can count on one hand easily the number of customers that have been unhappy with my products in any way. IF there has been a problem I have corrected it because again, I see mycustomers more as friends then customers and as such I take care of them as such.

I do not raise my prices because of how busy I am. If I ever raise my prices, its because of componant cost increases which I simply have to pass onto the cost of my rifles, pure and simple.

Anyway, I welcome any opinion about me or my products. I will debate any point you would like. I would shoot my rifles against any big game hunting rifle out there and I would never feel undergunned against anyone elses rifles.

I fully know there are many great smiths out there. I also know there are many with much more experience then me. I will also say that I know of very few smiths that from day one to 4 years out that has had their company grow nearly this fast. I also do not know of any that have designed and released just shy of 20 wildcats in a 4 year period.

Now you say there is nothing to bringing out a wildcat, hell you were shooting the 338 Lapua before it was even made by Lapua. Now do that nearly 5 more times in one year and repeat that for 4 years in a row with more projects on the way.

Again, I respect your opinion, I am glad you have a smith that you are comfortable with that makes you quality rifles, everyone should have that and for those that choose me to make them a rifle, I hold that as a great honor and do my best to make sure they know they made a good decision.

Sorry I rub you the wrong way, not sure what is behind your comments. I have a feeling I know and am always amazed why you guys get your shorts in a bunch because I put my name on a rifle barrel. Seems if that gets you fired up, I suspect you are wound a bit tight!!!

Anyway, have a good night and thanks for your posts on the subject. Do not agree with them but your welcome to your opinion no matter how wrong you are in my mind.

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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