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Advice required on which 338.

 
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  #8  
Old 08-06-2008, 10:50 PM
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Why not split the difference with a 338-378 wby or full size 416 rigby improved or similar. Same cost and weight as the Lapua with power closer to the chey tac case 338 stuff. I have seen a number of these type rifles that get 3100 fps out of the 300 matchking which is considerably more than the Lapua-ultramag case and getting near the chey-tac case with the weight of a rifle you can hunt with. My 338-378 ready to hunt weighs 10 3/4 pounds.

I can understand a guy who wants to convert his standard magnum action to a big time 338 without a lot of money and does the 338-300 ultramag. In 1999 I converted about 65 of these for guys like that. But I am seeing new guys on here saving there money and spending a bunch on a straight custom rifle in this cartridge apparently without realizing or considering other choices that give them better performance. I have all of these but the chey tac case and when I get serious and all the marbles are on the table with trophy game I go with the tremendous performance advantage of the 338-378 over the lesser rifles. That extra 250-300 fps advantage is a lot in a hunting situation. I remember back in the 60's when I went from a 30-06 to a 300 weatherby mag and the difference was amazing. About the same as going from the 338-300 ultramag to the 338-378 weatherby. If I can get this performance in the same weight rifle for hunting I am going with it. And if I find a better performer at this weight I will build and shoot it.

I could care less what anybody shoots, it just seems that lately on here all the new guys are just being influenced in one direction without looking at a lot of the other choices out there. There are some good ones not being mentioned here a lot. I have built and shot many versions of the 338 caliber for over 30 years and there are a lot of choices out there.
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2008, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Time Long Ranger View Post
...
That extra 250-300 fps advantage is a lot in a hunting situation. I remember back in the 60's when I went from a 30-06 to a 300 weatherby mag and the difference was amazing. About the same as going from the 338-300 ultramag to the 338-378 weatherby.
...
I thought that the 338-378WBY was less than 100fps faster than the 338-300RUM at the same pressure levels? But the Wby needs more powder, a larger boltface and larger magazine for the extra/same fps?

Quickload shows the WBY tops out at around 2850fps with the 300SMK and a 28" barrel. It shows the 338-300RUM topping out around 2800fps for the same barrel/bullet.

Maybe I mis-remember?

AJ
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2008, 08:38 AM
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Long Ranger,

Not sure how your getting this level of performance increase. I have built dozens of 338 Kahns which is an improved 338-378 and in a 34" barrel, you will get 3100 fps MAX. Thats being able to reload your brass. Wby brass is quite soft and will not take the pressure that the Lapua case will.

I have never seen where the 338-378 could vastly improve on a round such as the 338 Lapua improved and on average in same length barrels it will add around 100 fps to the Edge and standard Lapua.

THere is no way to get 250 to 300 fps with the Wby compared to what the 338 Edge or Lapua will get. The 338-378 Wby will not get you 3100 fps with a 300 gr SMK in a 28-20" barrel without dramatically sacrificing case life and it will never get you 3200 to 3250 fps ever safely.

The 338 Lapua improved and my 338 AX will match or even exceed the 338-378 Wby with same bullets and same barrel lengths and do so with around 10 grains less powder and also do wo with much better brass and less costly brass and with longer barrel life, how? Because the Lapua case can handle so much more pressure.

The 416 based wildcats are really not what they used to be. Brass is terribly expensive and no stronger then the Wby brass.

All in all, if you want a higher performing 338 then the Edge or Lapua, the next practical step up for me is the Lapua Improved or my AX. I seldom give the Wby a second thought and thats after many years of using it in the Kahn form. Its a great round but offers no advantage at all over the Improved Lapua designs and has several draw backs in comparision.

There are alot of different 338s out there and I believe most of them have been talked about. The Wby gets left out alot because it has so many disadvantages compared to the Lapua designs. 20 years ago, I agree, it would have been the best choice, times have changes and with the Lapua case easily attainable and at lower prices then the Wby case by far and VASTLY superior strength, there is really no comparision.

Just for comparision, the 338 Allen Xpress will give you just shy of 2900 fps with a 300 gr SMK and in a 26-27" barrel length. In the same length barrel, I have not seen a 338-378 that would exceed this in any way and even matching this level of performance primer pocket life was very short in the Wby.

Not trying to start a fight, just from what I have seen shooting the Wby alot and the Lapua based rounds alot, there is no comparision between the two, Lapua based hands down.

Certainly it offers a bit more velocity over the Edge or standard Lapua but I have never seen much more then 100-150 fps, nothing similiar to 250 o 300 fps increase, even if the big Wby has 6 to 7" longer barrel length it will not get this level of increased performance. Just what I have seen shooting dozens and dozens of both chamberings.

As far as most shooters jumping on the Chey Tac band wagon, that is hardly the case, certainly they are getting more popular but I have dozens do hunters come to me wanting the 338 Allen Magnum and 90% of those end up with rifles such as the 338 Edge, Lapua or my AX instead of the Allen Magnum simply because the others serve their needs better. Yes the 338-378 Wby is in this same high performance class but its just got to many flies on it compared to other newer designs.

Just my opinion, no flame intended in any way.
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  #11  
Old 08-07-2008, 10:51 AM
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Kirby, I have heard Lapua brass is top quality and obviously you have a lot of experince with it. I have also heard that Norma is top quality. What's your opinion between the two? I'm looking to get top velocities out of a 300 WSM probably with a 180 gr bullet. Thanks.

Sorry for the Hijack, but didn't think this deserved a new thread, maybe it does?
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  #12  
Old 08-07-2008, 10:59 AM
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I can vouch for the 338 Lapua brass and will consider no other..
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2008, 01:01 PM
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MT Rifleman,

If your definition of quality is uniformity and dimensional consistancy, Lapua and Norma brass are very similiar in quality.

To those criteria I also add case strength to the equation and in that respect, Norma cases tend to run very soft in the case head in comparision to the Lapua cases.

That does not mean that they are weak by any means, I would compare them to the Rem Ultra Mag case as far as how much pressure they can take and retain a snug primer pocket.

Lapua brass will take pressure that will loosen a Norma cases primer pocket and handle it for many firings.

This does not mean you should run the hell out of Lapua cases, only that if you want to load top end safe pressures, the Lapua brass WILL get you that performance with many more firing per case then the Norma brass which is by the way the manufacturer of Wby brass to the best of my knowledge.

That is why I consider Lapua far superior.

I am referring mainly to the 338 Lapua cases. The other Lapua brass is also very quality but I would not say its made as brute strong as the 338 Lapua case is. Still its all stronger then Norma hulls.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #14  
Old 08-07-2008, 02:57 PM
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The Lapua wb site has an article tilted "Story Of The 338 Lapua"

From the web site

The reason for .416 Rigby case being a good prototype and parent case, but not the actual choice for the new caliber case was quite clear. For the .338/416 cartridge the velocity of a 16,2 g bullet was 915m/s. A completely different case designed for a higher pressure level was clearly needed. The original Rigby .416 case had a rough 3000 Bar pressure case. The new cartridge was designed for over 4000 Bar pressures. The original pressure definition based on the deformation of the copper pellet method - the crusher method - was specified in the beginning into 56000 CUPs (about 3900 bar). When CIP moved to the piezo transducer period, a mistake was made somewhere resulting in the pressure medium for .338 Lapua Magnum to stay in the 4700 Bar level, even thought the correct level is in the 4200 Bars.


http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=889
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Last edited by jwp475; 08-07-2008 at 03:11 PM.
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