Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


7mm Allen Mag test rifle finished.....

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 07-19-2005, 04:12 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mukilteo, WA
Posts: 1,092
Re: wc872 burn rate

Find a reference supporting your assertion, that a gun is not a simple heat pump.

[/ QUOTE ]
My only assertion is that your assertion is incorrect. You're the one that made the wild claim:

If Kirby loads his rifle to max peak pressure with two different powders, both loads will heat the barrel exactly the same amount, no matter what. Any difference could only be attributed to magic.

While asking everybody else for references, you've failed to give a single one of your own--besides "some chemists I know"--to support your wild claim.

Really, are you a Freshman College student or something? You certainly sound like one. Have you actually completed Thermo I and II, Heat Transfer I and II, Physics I, II, III, etc, etc, etc, yada, yada, yada?

From your posts, I highly doubt you have. Your mis-application of laws and misunderstandings at the most basic fundamental levels are bordering upon comical.
Reply With Quote

Unread 07-19-2005, 09:08 AM
Official LRH Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
Re: wc872 burn rate

Alright, now things are getting a bit out of hand discussing powders. Anyone what to actually get back to talking about bullets, barrels and ballistics????? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Points taken by all, lets drop it before things get flaming more then they are.


Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2005, 09:33 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 126
Re: wc872 burn rate

Please read this one post carefully. I will explain from my perspective why you are wrong, and why you owe myself and others an apology. I will not be your new Dan Hackett, so if you don't get where I'm coming from after this, then we can just agree that we can't comunicate.

My summary:
1) People posted observations about hotter/cooler burning powders.
2) You said they are wrong, and it is all "hi-skoul" chemistry.
3) I commented that a burning powder charge is a complex, high-temperature/pressure, non-equilibrium system.
4) You dismiss this by saying "it is neither"
etc etc

Any chemist would call a mixture of more than 6 reacting gasses complex (fact). A reaction occuring at 1000's of degrees and up to 50000 psi is high temp/pressure (fact). These accompanied by a rapidly changing reaction chamber would be non-equilibrium (fact).

You tell me to provide credible references for my points, while you simply state yours. Then you apologize that your explanations aren't always clear because you are used to talking to educated people. This is insulting, and arrogant. Even if you were right it is very condescending.

You have some major misconceptions about the phenomena here.
The idea that the purpose of a propellant is to produce gasses is very basic. A byproduct of the reactions is also heat. This heat further increases the reaction rate and pressure. I think most people on this board know this. To try to clear up what you don't understand, I have asked you:
1) state clearly what YOU think is happening.
2) Tell me who the chemists are who you have missunderstood.

As far as the references you can forget all but one.
Gun Propulsion Technology (progress in aeronautics and astronautics). I only gave the one you criticized because it has web access for all. I don't know what journals etc you can access.

You dismiss this saying "I'll stick to science thanks!!?"
That book is the most authoritative on this subject!

The reason I feel you should apologize is not because you are wrong (anyone can be wrong), but because of your insulting way of telling everyone how "well educated" you are.
When I comment on a topic I try to give a simple bottom line. I don't pull out my resume and tell people I'll try to dumb it down for them. You try to mention functions, and tell people you can help them integrate things.

It is very much like someone with only a Masters degree to a) tell everyone about their degree, and b) be wrong. You come off as a real assballs, while not impressing me in the least.
Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2005, 10:34 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: GF Montana
Posts: 467
Re: wc872 burn rate

Your facts are in fact wrong - but that is moot and has nothing to do with the issue. Here is the question: What drives a bullet <ul type="square">[*]Heat contribution[*]n (increase in gas molecules)[*]Yet unidentified mystery force[/list]
The primary force is from heat. different powders producing the same vel Have very similar combustion products - so that portion KE that doesn't derive from heat ( n or the mystery force ) can be condered the same.

All your credible references support my claim. Please answer my questions and support your claim, ie that <font color="red"> two appropriate powders can produce the same Vel - one via heat and the other via n (or the mystery force)</font>
<font color="purple"> [ QUOTE ]

You dismiss this saying "I'll stick to science thanks!!?"
That book is the most authoritative on this subject!

[/ QUOTE ] </font>
All those errors I pointed out and it's the most authoritative? <font color="purple"> [ QUOTE ]
Note: Often the pressure-travel curve is the given variable, and the gun tube thickness is then dictated by the pressure-travel curve.

[/ QUOTE ] </font>
Who designs guns like that? Please answer my questions. Thanks for providing the credible refs that support my claim.
That's it for me unless you can provide a credible reference to your claim. Please answer the questions.
Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2005, 10:51 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: GF Montana
Posts: 467
Re: wc872 burn rate

Maybe this can settle the debate. I've emailed my PhD chemist pal with the following experiment design.

Find loads in my 300 RUM producing the same Vel using H50-BMG and wc872. Attach a thermocouple and a RSI pressure Trace. If the velocities are the same, the area under the curve must be the same (do we agree on that)? Measure the temp.

I will have to find a load that burns all the powder of the H50BMG - or the results will be bogus - as the H50BMG remaining after bullet exit simply heats the barrel and does not contribute measurably to acceleration (contrary to your favorite author).

The chemist will probably find flaws with my experiment, as he did with my Ammonia dissolving copper experiment. The biggest problem I see is too much powder.
Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2005, 11:20 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 126
Re: wc872 burn rate

All of a sudden you are talking about combustion products? What do you think I've been telling you! New molecules? Similar formulations?
You are changing your story as you realize that I'm correct. You were originally saying that no new molecules were formed. It is a simple heat pump etc. How do you think different burn rates are acheived? One way is through different formulations and different amounts of retardants. Other ways include grain geometry. Its all in the book I KEEP TELLING YOU ABOUT!!!
You still aren't talking about the ref I'm talking about "GUN Proplusion Technology". Can you quit talking about some stupid website?
Finally, tell me who this chemist is, and his area of expertise!? Is he a physical/theoretical chemist (like myself)?
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads for: 7mm Allen Mag test rifle finished.....
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
224 Allen Magnum testing finished............ Fiftydriver Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 33 07-06-2006 08:29 PM
Finally finished my wifes 6.5mm Allen Mag 1K rifle.... Fiftydriver Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 14 06-29-2006 08:35 PM
New Allen Magnum and APS rifle design finally ready to test.... Fiftydriver Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 52 02-17-2006 08:00 PM
Finished 224 Allen Mag rifle, pics... Fiftydriver Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 6 12-17-2005 10:21 PM
7mm Allen Magnum finished..... Fiftydriver Long Range Hunting & Shooting 32 11-08-2005 08:25 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2015 Long Range Hunting, LLC