Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


Reply

45acp Or 10mm

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 06-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 112
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

In my mind, all the service calibers are pretty weak for game. 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 357 Mag, 10mm, etc. If you need horsepower that's relatively controllable the 41 Mag (real 41 loads, not watered-down to 10mm levels), 44 Mag, and 45 Colt (heavy loads) are all above and beyond the service calibers.

Problem with the 357, 40 S&W, and 10mm is that by the time you load a heavy bullet in them they really don't have much if any velocity advantage over a 45 ACP with comparable sized handguns.

For example, DoubleTap Ammo 230gr loads for 10mm (from G20) are listed at 110 fps greater than the 45 ACP 230gr loads (from 5" 1911). 10mm has greater sectional density, 45 has bigger bullet. Turns into a great peeing match, but over what? A few fps? I agree that 110 fps is nothing to sneeze at, but its not a gigantic leap in terms of power by any stretch.

Compare the 10mm to 45 Super and the difference decreases. Buffalo Bore's 230gr Super has the same velocity as the 10mm 230gr from DoubleTap. Seems like a wash to me, other than bullet diameter. Yeah but the 10mm will pentrate better with the higher sectional density! For some reason the 10mm crowd doesn't always agree with this concept when the 357 fans make this claim of their pet vs the 10mm. I think we all tend to cherry pick our facts and figures. Its somewhat natural.

Same deal with 40 S&W vs 45 ACP. The 45 will shoot a 180gr bullet just as fast as a 40 S&W, but the 40 won't handle much over 200gr. I don't see what the 40 can do that the 45 can't, except hold a few more rounds. They'll both shoot 180gr and 200gr bullets about the same velocity.

How about the mighty 357 Mag? Again, with heavy-for-caliber 200gr bullets, in a 4" revolver, its only about 100 fps faster than the 45 ACP with the same weight bullet. But, the 357 does have great sectional density and probably the greatest penetration of all the service calibers if using hardcast bullets. If fired from a longer barrelled revolver, then I think the 357 can step past the other service calibers, but why bother? If I carry a large frame revolver, I'd just as soon carry a big bore.

Some like bigger diameter, heavy-for-caliber, at relatively slow velocity vs. smaller, lighter, and faster bullets. I like the slow and heavy, or fast and heavy! I carry a Glock 30 in 45 ACP, but when I want something more I carry my 45 Colt with 310gr hardcast LFN at 1250 fps. Its very accurate and a pleasure to shoot.

If a guy didn't want a heavy loaded Colt, 41, or 44 Mag, there are 255gr hardcast loads for the 45 ACP from Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap. No 255gr loaded ammo that I have seen for sale in 10mm, 40 S&W, or 357 Mag. Personally, I would rather have the .45 cal 255gr at 900 to 1100 fps over any 357, 40, or 10mm loads. The 255gr ACP load is basically the equivalent to the old black powder 45 Colt.

If I had to choose between 357 vs 40 vs 10mm vs 45 ACP only, I would take the one that I could shoot most accurately and the one I could afford to shoot enough to be proficient with if I didn't reload. My G30 is extremely accurate and has really soft recoil. By no means do I think it is a death ray, but at the same time I don't think it really gives up much if anything to the other service calibers.

If you like small, light, and fast, that's great too! There's no real winner, otherwise we wouldn't have all these great choices.

Last edited by 4th_point; 06-22-2010 at 12:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-22-2010, 09:08 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Bend, Oregon
Posts: 1,263
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

Nice post but as you stated cherry picking the facts has nicely leveled the field to where they do look to be all about the same. Problem is when put into practice sectional density and penetration are huge factors that must be considererd. With equal weight bullets the 45 pentrates the least. Even out the sectional densities and the 45 is the slowest. When water bearing targets are involved then supersonic verses subsonic makes a big difference and this is where just 100 fps makes a huge difference in wounding ability.

Now lets go shoot some objects like a water jug behind a 4" thick alder tree. The 180 grain 10mm will make an impressive hole in the tree and destroy the jug where the 45 185 to 230 grain bullets will only go an 1" or 2" into the tree.

The common 230 grain 45 ACP load has just never done anything very well but put big holes in paper or blow bowling pins over. It shines at those tasks. Destroying everything else is much more fun with the 10mm.
__________________
Build a man a fire and you heat him for a day.
Set him on fire and you heat him for life.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Gordy and Brady.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-22-2010, 02:06 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 192
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

I've looked into this a little bit for myself lately, and I had a hard time finding an apples to apples comparison of ammo. For what I was looking at I was impressed that I could buy a glock that holds 15rds of ammo that's comparable to a 41 mag for under $500. I'm not a glock guy by any means, but that's enough to make me consider it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-22-2010, 03:37 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

In order to tip the scales toward the 45 convincingly, you have to be
willing to modernize the concept and shoot it at similar pressures
as the modern 10mm instead of the 100 year old design that we
are hanging on to.

With todays technology and metalurgy, we can shoot the 45 at hi pressures.
Why are we hanging on to the 100 year old performance guidelines ?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 192
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

Quote:
Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
In order to tip the scales toward the 45 convincingly, you have to be
willing to modernize the concept and shoot it at similar pressures
as the modern 10mm instead of the 100 year old design that we
are hanging on to.

With todays technology and metalurgy, we can shoot the 45 at hi pressures.
Why are we hanging on to the 100 year old performance guidelines ?

The 10mm is new to me, but it seems the higher pressure levels of the 10mm are comparable to the 45acp +p+ type ammo? Do I understand that right? I think with all the ammo out there for the 45acp surely someone has bumped up the power behind it for modern pistols to the point where it would be comparable to a 10mm.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-22-2010, 04:05 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

Go back a couple of messages and read the link info.
There will be no more questions as all is explained
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-22-2010, 09:42 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 112
Re: 45acp Or 10mm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Gun View Post
Nice post but as you stated cherry picking the facts has nicely leveled the field to where they do look to be all about the same. Problem is when put into practice sectional density and penetration are huge factors that must be considererd. With equal weight bullets the 45 pentrates the least. Even out the sectional densities and the 45 is the slowest. When water bearing targets are involved then supersonic verses subsonic makes a big difference and this is where just 100 fps makes a huge difference in wounding ability.

Now lets go shoot some objects like a water jug behind a 4" thick alder tree. The 180 grain 10mm will make an impressive hole in the tree and destroy the jug where the 45 185 to 230 grain bullets will only go an 1" or 2" into the tree.

The common 230 grain 45 ACP load has just never done anything very well but put big holes in paper or blow bowling pins over. It shines at those tasks. Destroying everything else is much more fun with the 10mm.
No!!! Not another 10mm peeing match!!! I love these 10mm threads.

I provided heavy-for-caliber loads for each cartridge for comparison since that is simply what I prefer. Light-n-fast isn't my thing, but if that's what floats your boat then that is cool too! If my post seems like cherry picking, I apologize. Maybe I should have been more clear that I was comparing heavy loads.

A guy could come up with all sorts of tests to show how one cartridge/bullet combo is better than another. Phonebooks, wood, water jugs, etc. They only prove how one is better at killing common household items and trees! Especially when we are discussing the service cartridges that have more in common amongst themselves than they do with the big-bore magnums and heavy Colt loads. Really, we need to shoot actual animals to get a better idea of true performance.

Seems that you like the 180gr .40 cal (10mm), and cherry picked your own data comparing it to the 230gr ACP. Hey, that's cool. If I were hunting trees and water jugs lined up in a row, I'd choose a different bullet for my 45 ACP!

You like light, I like heavy. If we can agree on that, how about my 255gr hardcast at 1100 fps vs your 180gr 10mm at what, 1350 fps (DoubleTap load)? Your argument is that sectional density is king or queen. The 255gr bullet trumps your 180gr for that. The greater frontal diameter of the 255gr is also an advantage in my mind against flesh, but you've got a velocity advantage. I really like that 75gr weight advantage that the 255gr has though and would always take the heavier bullet if I need to smash bone. Linebaugh claims that a 255gr hardcast at 900 fps will shoot end-to-end on a mule deer. I've never done it, so I can't confirm but an extra 200 fps at 1100fps should only make the load better.

Hey, since we are both in Oregon, maybe we can run our own little test with the 255gr vs the 180gr. Or we could put these silly service cartridges away and use real big bores like the 41, 44, and Colt
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: 45acp Or 10mm
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
10mm bullet RH300UM General Discussion 3 01-26-2011 11:57 PM
Wts sig p220 45acp ShortMag3 Guns For Sale 0 09-26-2010 05:55 PM
WTB: 10mm & 454 once fired...............(SC) HiVelocity Reloading Equipment and Components 1 03-20-2010 06:18 PM
Anybody use federal 45acp brass mreed Reloading 3 03-16-2009 09:27 PM
WTB: 45ACP brass and Bullets nyati1 Reloading Equipment and Components 0 10-26-2008 12:35 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC