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is 360 yards too close for bergers?

 
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:32 AM
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is 360 yards too close for bergers?

I switched from 180 nosler ballistic silver tips to 190 berger hunting VLDs this year in my WSM. Record groups had me very optimistic but terminal performance has me concerned and about to switch to something else. My hunting partners 400 yard bull elk went right down from a neck shot with a 168 vld ( he switched after seeing my groups) but did not exit or do much damage really. We where a bit surprised but not panicked. I filled a cow elk tag at 360 yards shooting what I thought would be a perfect double lung and she did go down after one jump but was still moving her head and trying to get back up several minutes later and I could not stand to watch any more so with her laying quartering away with her neck up- head tilted down I put around right behind her jaw in line with the brain and she flopped over still. I ran up the hill to my truck down the road two miles, filled two canteens with water and headed back. Started working my way down looked over and much to my horror she was STANDING there bleeding in the same spot I thought she had already expired. She was facing the opposite direction as the first shot which gave me yet another broad side shot and that ended this fiasco but left me vary concerned to discover the 190 vld leaving the muzzle @ 2875fps failed to penetrate @360 one lung from each side and a head shot which landed as intended did not make it threw. With data galore and dear season upon me, I decided to use them for dear. Foolishly taking my first and last high shoulder shot on a four point muley @200 yards which broke his back and sent him crawling @20 mph across the hill side where I was able to slip a second round just over his heart and end it. None got away, but the front meat of the dear is now a salvage op and my string of one shot kills has bean ended. Elk@360 Dear@200 too close or just too soft a jacket for hunting? Very accurate just not effective like others I have used. Tell me this is not normal.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:02 AM
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Re: is 360 yards too close for bergers?

I have seen first hand this season 3 elk taken with the VLD's. Two with 210's from a 300 wm and one with 168 from a 7mm rem. Distances were 803 and 234 for the 210 and 450 for the 168. Two of the elk did walk a short distance of less than 100 yards but nothing like you have seen. The one that took the longest to die was mine at 803. In a moment of wisdom I elected to tuck one right behind the shoulder to save meat. My wind calc was light ad I hit him at the back rib. It missed the rib going in and exited the other side farther forward with an exit hole of 2". If I had took my usual high center shoulder shot he would never have taken a step like the past one I took with a 210 berger. All shoulder for me from now on for elk. They have a will to live like no other and need to be put down. Lastly, we recovered the 168 vld from the bull at 450. It was in tack including the jacket and looked nice as it was a perfect rounded mushroom.

I feel any one bullet can act in many different ways. Angle, bone, distance all play a part with all bullets. I have read about most all bullets being king, or the same bullet being bad from someones different experience. My thought is this. I use what ever is most accurate in my rifle and I have the best chance of good placement. I doubt anyone will argue "shot placement rules" So I strive to shoot at a small area and have a follow up ready.

Jeff
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Last edited by Broz; 11-24-2010 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:24 AM
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Re: is 360 yards too close for bergers?

Should be "FIRST shot placement rules", so that much of this 'problem' would be rare.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:57 AM
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Re: is 360 yards too close for bergers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.ID View Post
I switched from 180 nosler ballistic silver tips to 190 berger hunting VLDs this year in my WSM. Record groups had me very optimistic but terminal performance has me concerned and about to switch to something else. My hunting partners 400 yard bull elk went right down from a neck shot with a 168 vld ( he switched after seeing my groups) but did not exit or do much damage really. We where a bit surprised but not panicked. I filled a cow elk tag at 360 yards shooting what I thought would be a perfect double lung and she did go down after one jump but was still moving her head and trying to get back up several minutes later and I could not stand to watch any more so with her laying quartering away with her neck up- head tilted down I put around right behind her jaw in line with the brain and she flopped over still. I ran up the hill to my truck down the road two miles, filled two canteens with water and headed back. Started working my way down looked over and much to my horror she was STANDING there bleeding in the same spot I thought she had already expired. She was facing the opposite direction as the first shot which gave me yet another broad side shot and that ended this fiasco but left me vary concerned to discover the 190 vld leaving the muzzle @ 2875fps failed to penetrate @360 one lung from each side and a head shot which landed as intended did not make it threw. With data galore and dear season upon me, I decided to use them for dear. Foolishly taking my first and last high shoulder shot on a four point muley @200 yards which broke his back and sent him crawling @20 mph across the hill side where I was able to slip a second round just over his heart and end it. None got away, but the front meat of the dear is now a salvage op and my string of one shot kills has bean ended. Elk@360 Dear@200 too close or just too soft a jacket for hunting? Very accurate just not effective like others I have used. Tell me this is not normal.
I would say..this is not normal. I killed two whitetails this year from 280 and 300yards with 140VLD in my 260 with an MV of 3000fps. Bullet performance was perfect. Bullet entered behind the should and blew a 2" exit hole out the other side. Both deer took a few steps and tumbled over.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:27 AM
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Re: is 360 yards too close for bergers?

I agree, not normal.

I shot an axis doe at 170yards last year. First round hit a rib going in and absolutely nuked her. She ran 10yards and stopped, dead on her feet, however since I'd never used berger's before I held same spot and sent a another 210 VLD at 2930fps her way. This one hit the spine and took a grapefruit size chunk out the other side.

The guide was feeling quesy looking at the thing!

After "gutting" the extend of the damage from the first bullet came aparent, lungs and heart were indistiguisable. It was just soup.

No insult intended, are you sure those are the hunting VLDs?
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:02 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: is 360 yards too close for bergers?

this is a 210 VLD recovered from a Mule deer at 320 yards. Shot at 3080fps. Hit behind the shoulder. He gave the death kick and ran 30 yards. No pass through. My gun also killed another deer at 426 with the same results. Where is the core of the bullet?
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:17 PM
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Location: OHIO
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Re: is 360 yards too close for bergers?

I don't know if it is proper to say that the OP's experience is "not normal" or "not common." What is the "normal" expected outcome?

I have now killed just a handful of deer with the Bergers with the closest being around 45-50 yards and the longest was 289 yards. Inspection of the vital region on each deer revealed destruction on par with every other "hunting" bullet I've ever used and in each case there was an exit with the Berger and more blood than most of my bowkills.

Bullets used: 150 VLD/270, 210 VLD/308

So, to that, I'm sure if I posted my clusterf__k accubond experience on a muley, I'd be told it wasn't normal either but it still happened.

I don't think I'd give up on the VLDs yet but do make sure you are using the ones that say "hunting" and not "target."

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. If I am certain I won't have a shot over 400 yards, I use Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets primarily.
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