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338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

 
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  #36  
Old 04-28-2009, 06:47 PM
NFG NFG is offline
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

AJ has hit it almost precisely and again thanks for the confidence. BUT with the additional concept of "But this is HOW It can be done safely including a few pertainant additonal bits of knowledge".

But not even and no way, enough is enough and a few parting comments.

There has been NO QUESTION about the fact the Savage action isn't really suitable for doing a 338 Lapua at FULL PRESSURE. The fact that this question keeps coming up and NEEDS to be addressed with a short, simple, COMPLETE, factual answer seems to be wasted even on those who continually scream bloody murder that is shouldn't be done...I agree...and MAYBE if the questions I asked were answered fully as I requested, a summation could be compiled, canned and presented anytime it came up. As I said before and appearantly missed, once that information hit the net the question would probably go away. A canned statement put in a sticky with LARGE, BOLD letters would end it for all intents and purposes.

But that doesn't seem to be happening even though, I would guess, EVERYONE WOULD AGREE IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING.

I've been kicked in the balls too many times on forums for putting out information not in the normal realm, I've had enough. I expected more from this forum but see that people continue to carry around excess baggage, trot out the "expertise" and run in circles and waving their arms.

PEI: I went back to check because I didn't remember any major reference to lugs...it was buried in the link and only stated "the lugs were overstressed." nothing more.

Again, that doesn't mean diddly squat to me and probably the same to someone of limited knowledge or understanding. I've already ran lug area calculations on at least a dozen different bolts. While "our" actual numbers were different, the results were statistically similar and workable. This time I approached it from the shear modulus aspect, not quite as simple, but will supposedly give a closer approximation to the actual happening, so the results would be different.

That is why I wanted to know the ACTUAL, measured thickness of the upper lug abutment of the "large" receiver, so I could compute and compare it with what the measurements of my "small" receiver. You were so busy keep'n' on that you just "guestimated".

I already said at least once the what YOU or I say or scatter all over the flowers has a value just about as high as that material. It is nothing but conjecture, maybe based on an "assumed expertice", but still conjecture.

And the AMOUNT or the WHERE of the setback STILL hasn't reared it's ugly head.

NO factory does such a radical change just to get some extra "meat" around the chamber UNLESS there was something else going on...the whole process entails extra material being removed from the barrel, and a larger diameter barrel also. More waste and more cost, plus a fairly long and extra cost R&D process, not to mention the decision making process at the upper management level. I know a little bit about that process, but I won't toss out any war stories of that time. The 7mm and 300 magnums were alive and well and still functioning as far as I can tell.

It might also be of note that IF the change in shank size change solved the problem completely or not and the whys, but that information would come from the factory and they WON'T turn that loose for sure.

I don't know for sure if all the magnums and WSM's are large shank now or if only the WSM chamberins. That would be good to know for a certainty.

Anyone looking at this from a purely speculative view has got to be laughing at all the total, complete and many times useless BS, mine included.

BountyHunter: You are right about most of what you say, and I agree with you, but not about me missing the point, I hardly ever miss a point, but I do offer alternative suggestions for those who might use them, or DID. Not any more.

Your assumption about no one wants a 338 Lapua WM may have merit, but it also missed the point of what I said about using larger cases to achieve higher velocity at lower pressures, albeit at a higher powder cost. Velocity isn't everything to everybody, only to SOME bodies. We did it all the time in the "olden days". And I think I also covered many if not all the reasons pro and con...It is/was used with blackpowder.

I'm glad I didn't start into my next Q&A of bolt head size reduction to reduce thrust, "rebated rimmed" cases. "What would reducing the Lapua bolt head to 0.550, or 0.532" dia do to bolt thrust and lug pressures and would it make any difference?" There is a lot of that going on around the block right now and in the past.

In any event.....
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  #37  
Old 04-28-2009, 07:23 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

NFG,

I'd like to drop you a PM, but you have that turned off. If interested in an offline discussion, drop me a PM or an email at don_peacock at hotmail dt com

Later,
AJ
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  #38  
Old 04-29-2009, 04:07 PM
NFG NFG is offline
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

I'm like a pit bull, once I get my teeth locked, I can't turn loose. I cant' turn loose here either, at least without this (last?) illustration. This forum has a small number of people and I think they are more motivated than most of the other forums, probably more knowledgeable and experienced, but still are letting the bigger picture get away from them. Not that I'm all that smart or expert except in maybe some areas.

I'm not making a case FOR or AGAINST the use of ANY cartridge in ANY receiver. I'm pointing out the holes, sometime gaping, in the arguments/opinions, some ways of looking at how to go about problem solving, some alternative ways of looking at (THIS) problem if it can be called a problem, and I base it is on EXPERIENCE and EXPERIMENTATION over 40 odd years.

I just might do that, AJ...I've been burned several times passing my email around...once burned, twice shy, Hey. I live 43 mile out in the boonies from a large town at the end of the OLD phone lines and have dial up. This forum is so graphically intense that it takes 5 minutes sometimes to load a page, and that doesn't include the problems of getting dumped for various reasons.

It take so long, basically, I don't have the time to keep doing this. As it is I usually start up then go fix my meals or do my toilet duties and so forth, then come back..When the weather is lousy I'm on the net, otherwise I'm in my shop, out shooting/testing, making pieces and parts, etc. I can go make a "something" to test, go reload/install, etc., go out to my range(100M, 155M and 340M), and test it, THEN go back and do whatever mods need done and test again. I'm NOT an expert in anything, but I can do just about anything I want within this shooting field

I don't know whether I will do a 338 Lapua or a RUM/EDGE, OR smoke test a Savage action just to destruction, it is a moot question to me, but it would be interesting to do. I might also add the fact that Savage did a Lazzeroni once and Rem is doing a 338 Lapua Police/militay right now. Comparing the data is an interesting aside, and certainly expected to stir the pot somewhat.


Here is some Load froma a Disk data for the 338 RUM, 338 Lapua and 338 WM. It illustrates what I've been saying, the gaping holes in many of the arguments, at least from my perspective and is apples to apples comparisons, except with the WM's powder use. Smaller case needs a slightly faster burning powder. BUT, for those who can understand ALL the nuances, powder use is also a variable use item.

Same BULLET, same COAL, same PRESSURE, same POWDER, just different cases.

You should also note the difference in case capacity is only 10gr H2O, which translates to about a 2.5% velocity increase (but not necessarily so) all other things being equal.

It also points up the WHY's the RUM case works much better for all the reasons, but also points up the fact that by turning the Lapua base to 0.550" you essentially have a RUM, BUT, with the extra strength the Lapua case has designed in, it would be my choice over the lower SAMMI specs of the RUM, but shot at the lower pressure.

You might just notice the small difference in velocity also AT THE SAME PRESSURES. You and I can start spliting flea hairs here, but it would be of little or no value. Keeping apples to apples would prove that.

BountyHunter, please note that going to a larger case at the same pressure as the 338 WM doesn't make it a 338RUM/LAPUA 338WM...it takes an extra 10% of a slower burning powder to give you an additional 200 fs...!!!

One other argument dissing "smoke testing" needs to be spoken to...way in the old days that's one of the methods of ascertaining MAX loads...it is still valid today as long as those doing it understand what the hell they are doing. It is done with all kinds of other calibers, has been done for the past 40 odd years that I KNOW of, it is safe as long as you approach it in a logical, safe manor and keep the stupidity to a minimum. And those doing the "stupid" doesn't make the process null or void. Mother nature has a way of dealing with those that need to learn the hard way.

I know for a fact that benchrest shooters, in the old days AND today(but less and less and we learn more and more), loaded a tight fitting chamber/receiver/bolt to well over max pressures to achieve a certain velocity. Because of the tight fit, the brass didn't have too many places to go and it lasted quite a few firings, but did "wear out" in time. Because of the "loosy-goosy" Savage fit, doing the same thing is totally uncalled for and probably is closely tied with the "setback problem". And there are ways to mitigate this problem.

For those that want an excellent visual presentation or pressure vs bolt/receivers, GOTO Varmint Al's website, you might learn something.

No one seems to get to upset about using the 338 RUM in a Rem OR a Savage, so here is the data.

No one has presented FACTUAL, EMPIRICAL, LOGICAL, SCIENTIFICALLY PRESENTED evidence including all the parameters, i.e., headspace, case data including number of times fired, powder, primer, COAL, tight or loose chamber, barrel brand or tightness, seating, throat depth, etc.

Many gunners don't have a clue that once the case fills the chamber, the brass has actually been over stressed and has passed the point of max yield. That you need to use a new case for EACH firing test, although I don't always and neither does all the "bigboys", plus using a factory cartridge to establish the amount of base expansion. This has bee cover many times in many books and publications, but NO ONE has mentioned following a logical step by step process to ascertain WHY one or two Savage actions experienced lug or receiver setback.

If you can't speak to me in this language then don't make a flat statement, make it a question or an opinion(not really worth a dam either) or an observation concerning YOUR experience with YOUR rifle and YOUR load and INCLUDE all the other pertainent information...THAT will go a long way in working through ANY problem with ANY cartridge or receiver.

I you want the pictures, save them as a picture NOT a URL because I don't leave pictures in Photobucket very long.










The wiggle words. I IN NO WAY CONDONE THE USE OF ANY RECEIVER FOR ANY WILDCAT OR FACTORY CARTRIDGE OUTSIDE THE PRESSURE RECOMMENDATON OF THE MAKER AND IN NO WAY RECOMMEND ANY FORM OF RELOADING BEYOND SAAMI RECOMMENDED PRESSURES.

Luck on your projects.

Last edited by NFG; 04-29-2009 at 04:13 PM.
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  #39  
Old 11-29-2011, 10:39 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

I'd like to kinda revive this thread. Since this thread, Savage has released several rifles chambered in 338 Lapua. So, now, since things have changed a little since the original OP, the question is...

Will a Stevens long action work for a 338lm rifle build?
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  #40  
Old 11-29-2011, 11:46 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme454 View Post
I'd like to kinda revive this thread. Since this thread, Savage has released several rifles chambered in 338 Lapua. So, now, since things have changed a little since the original OP, the question is...

Will a Stevens long action work for a 338lm rifle build?
The Lapua actions are not regular Savage 110 actions or Steven's 200 actions.

If someone was going to build a Lapua on a regular action, I would recommend doing it without the nut to get more meat around the chamber.
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  #41  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:18 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Here is my plan. Buy 10/110 FCP HS Precision. Sell the barrel and stock could get 500+ for both. Rebarrell in .338 Norma Mag. Slap on a McCree stock. I ran the numbers. Complete rifle with optics for 4500 bucks. Not too bad. I spec out a full build with aftermarket actoin and it's around 6 grand including gunsmithing.
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  #42  
Old 04-12-2013, 06:15 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Lets revive this again!!
I just went to the local gun shop and eyed and eyeball measured a 110 chambered in 338lm compared to one in 300wm. Only difference i saw was the bolt face diameter (obviously), baffle, and size of ejection port.
You can buy a lapua faced bolt head from pt&g, the baffle can be easily modified to show the extra bolt stroke, and a mill will make short work of the ejection port.
Are we still of the opinion that converting a 110 to 338 isn't a good idea?? I ask because i am looking fir a sacrificial rifle to use the action for a custom 338lm build and the cheapest savage i can find already set up in 338lm is the model 111 at about $1k. I can find 110s in the $500 range. If i can use it and spend a couple hundred to make it 338lm capable I'd rather go that route.
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