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338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

 
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  #29  
Old 04-27-2009, 05:04 PM
NFG NFG is offline
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Thanks anyway AJ, but really not needed for my purpopses. Would be good to post the information on the net for informational purposes. I've been scratching for those numbers and if they are out there, I just haven't found them yet. I just think ANY specific information relating to the hows and whys of NOT doing the 338 Lapua would be of great help because I KNOW this will come up again and again as people find the Lapua and start wondering. A very specific statement would present the information and stop most of the questions...I think or I hope anyway.

Your H1000 load according to my LD is running right at 57KCUP, close to the max. BUT as you probably well know the're are a lot of variables going on that many don't understand. That load might NOT be actually producing that amount of pressure in YOUR gun. The only way to know is to do a pressure test, maybe with RSI's pressure system.

Try the Fed 215's if you haven't already. They are more consistent than any other primers I have used. I use them in most of my large capacity, slower burning powder cals.

I don't get out that far much anymore...body all shot to H...eyes and finger work about as well as a cat and a rat together. 5-600 yds with the 243 and 22-243, sometimes I break out the 7mm RM or get fancy with the 375. I'm getting all antsy to try the 500 AR with some A Max or solid brass match. Velocity will be so low it will be like shooting my 45-120, rainbow all the way.


And thank you Edge. That is a very good example, and Dan presented the facts and numbers to back them up. High pressures are what kills using the large based cases. I remember reading that article sometime past.

BUT, and this is a very large BUTT, you can use large cases to attain higher velocities with lower pressures IF you understand HOW and stay within specific parameters...it always cost you more powder to get the same velocity as a smaller case but you can get the higher velocities and lower pressures. There is a point of very quick diminishing returns that approaches very fast when you start playing in that yard.

You can take a look at some of the Gibbs cartridges and see that happening. But with those hogs you usually run into recoil problems WAY before you run into pressure problems at least for the average, "normal" mortal.

To do this king of 'catting you also need a software program like Load from a Disk or Quick Load.

You need to do the low, slow belly crawl in your ghillie, up on ANY kind of wildcatting and that includes the reloading end.

A couple years back I built a 458 WM using a SMLE 2A action. Jeez, you would have though I had jumped on the Pope after I posted what I had done. WITH ALL the specifics relating to reloading for that receiver and how to go about creating a safe 458 WM load right out of the Hornady 2006 manual, and how easy it was to do.

Not withstanding it isn't the most desirable receiver most people think about but it is a STRONG action in many ways. I can also shoot 45-70 and 45-90 rounds in it.

I did it because the 458 WM case is MUCH easier to get to feed in the standard 303 or 308 mags...I won't even try a large rimmed 45-70 even by cutting down the rim to .575". I ran all kinds of case lengths and bullet seatings for a COAL of 3.02". The 458WM fit well so I used it.

If I had done a 450 Marlin or something based on the 444 M case I don't think there would have been ANY redazz. And yes it will handle a few factory loads, but not recommended. My loads are well within safe limits for the action at 40,000 psi taking into cosideration the bolt head size.

These examples all relate in some way to the question of a Lapua case based cartridge for the Savage. It might work even better by going up to 50 cal as long as the pressures were kept down. The RUM can be taken up to 45 cal easily enough and the 500 AR is nothing more than a necked up to .510 Lapua case, which was based on the Rigby case, shortened to 2.65" and a COAL around 3.4-3.6". Running the pressure aroung 45KPSI will give me way more thump and both ends than is needed except for those immortals who can take it.

Thanks Geargrinder...it takes me a while to get wound up and really cut loose and I've never been know for my patience. I usually don't suffer fools at all. I usually get P.O. with the usual garbage and blow it off. This time I just hung it out there and kept punching. I included a lot of information I usually never bother to put in, most of it hard earned and paid for out of MY pocket. There is so much information available and sooooo many walls. So much immediate gratification and not much swapping. I got mine, forget you BS. It's a pity we go defensive most of the time, way too soon. Life teaches us that tho'. Plus many of the forums are populated with a macho-man mentality and no way are you going to tell a hard head how to lick an ice cream cone. I come from the John Wayne era. You hold your water and don't whine when someone jumps in your face, on or off the net, but I'm also fairly well educated in many areas and slightly mild manored, but I'm a junk yard dog at heart. I don't bark, I just jump and bite. Another of lifes lessons that saved my bacon many times. I like John Travolta very much as an actor and a person, but Dancing???? Hahahaha, I liked him best in movies like "Swordfish" and "Face off".

The point being, as I have stated in the other posts, there are many ways to get to Disneyland.

Luck on your quests.

Last edited by NFG; 04-27-2009 at 05:36 PM.
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  #30  
Old 04-27-2009, 08:26 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFG View Post
... The problem is with the very small area of support at the upper and lower area inside of the receiver. When I looked at that a little harder, it dawned on me and I finally understood the whys of the problem. NO ONE mentioned that little bit of data and I missed it by looking too hard at other possibilities. Those two very small and thin cresents of steel and the small support area behind the bolt head are all you have between you and oblivion. ...

I understand now why Savage went to the larger diameter barrel shank. I see now that the lugs and barrel were not the problem. By going to a larger barrel shank and keeping the rest of the dimensions OEM, Savage in effect increased the size of the abutments and that small increase was all that was required to solve the problem.
The action is 1.355" OD. Lets say the large shank threads penetrate to a max of 1.125". That gives us a .115" thick ring equal to .498" square, say 1/2 an inch to make the math easy. She aint going to stretch because of thrust. The action lugs are being pushed on and the metal is thicker behind the top lug and I'd need VarmitAl to figure out what goes on behind the bottom lug, but I doubt it has anything to do with the shank diameter. You can increase the "size of the abutments" all you want but unless you increase the bolt lug diameter with it, there is no point, the shear forces start at the lugs. Savage increased the shank diameter to increase the amount of "meat" around the chamber and they stopped at the threads. The diameter of the area in front of the action lugs and before the threads remain the same, slightly larger than the bolt head at about 1" and that's about .785" square.


The combined surface area of both lugs in theory is .126" square. Bolt head OD is .990", action ID is .702" which leaves .288" Half that is .144" per lug times the width of .440" equals .063" square, two lugs gives .126" square. In reality considerably less because the bolt heads are tumbled leaving rounded edges and don't forget the action cam surfaces are partially under the bolt lugs. More likely around .100" - .110" square. The bolt handle has nothing to do with lug set back. .585" case/chamber gives a .26878" square area. You say 68kpsi. Thats about 18,277 lbs of thrust on .100" - .110" square area or 166,154 psi - 182,770 psi on the lugs. The Rc of the 41L40 lugs is 36-38 which has a yield strength of 165,000 - 173,000. The brass grips the chamber wall and lowers the effective thrust somewhat, good thing too.

Is this the "KRAP" you mentioned?

Oh, yes, the action is not as hard as the lugs 32-34Rc and about 147,000 psi - 156,000 psi.

Last edited by PEI Rob; 04-27-2009 at 08:31 PM.
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  #31  
Old 04-28-2009, 02:12 AM
NFG NFG is offline
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

I don't know whether it is KRAP or not, now do I??? I've only been on this forum for a few days and I don't know you from squat doodly, but thank's for the data. I must have rubbed your fur the wrong way, Hoss.

I apologized for my brusqueness in the earlier post, gave the reasons and requested some numbers.

If you would have ponyed this specific information up a few days ago when I ask for it, it would have made my efforts much easier. I had no way of knowing the Rc values of either the lugs OR the receiver so I was working through the problem like I've done for many years...trial and error, guestimation, working with knowns to attempt to find unknowns.

I was using ROUGH number guesses and rounding off to crunch some of the numbers and actual measurements for some of the others, just as you are, so what's the problem.

My contention that the only way to actual come up with accurate numbers is with a stress analysis is still correct, and using a pressure testing system like RSI's PressureTrace is a sure way to establish the actual pressures.

I think I succinctly stated my views and the reasons and they are still valid.

From what you're saying the setback was on the abutments NOT on the lugs if the receiver is softer, BUT, that information hasn't been presented so it's still a guess.

68KPSI is the SAAMI spec for the Lapua case, that is what I used.
0.588" for the bolt head as that is the number I extracted from case drawings.
64KPCI is the SAAMI pressure for a 300 WM, used as a comparison because there are LOTS of those being used including myself.

And you can STILL use a Lapua case as a basis as long as you keep the pressure down to where the action will handle it.

I'm guessing there is something else going on here that hasn't been fully explored, the differential pressure between the 338 Lapua and a 300 or 338 WM doesn't seem high enough to cause lug setback or the two WM cartridges are running on the ragged edge of the capabilities of the Savage all the time. I will also bet NO ONE will bother to explore this area.

AND because it was designed to handle higher pressures originally, the Lapua case would be an excellent case to use at a lower pressure even with the difference in bolt head thrust between the 300 WM and the Lapua, because case strength might offset the thrust difference.

The KRAP is always the same, someone getting pissy and a defensive position even though by now this question has been answered from several perspectives and becomes moot.

I'm done with this forum...go jump up on the couch and...there, that's a nice doggy...everything will be all right.
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2009, 06:58 AM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFG View Post
...

I'm done with this forum...go jump up on the couch and...there, that's a nice doggy...everything will be all right.
NFG,

I hope you stick around. I for one appreciated your inputs to this discussion. There are a ton of knowledgable folks on this site; sometimes there is friction between opposing views and sometimes there is more friction while posters wrestle around and decide they are in agreement!

Regardless, have a great day.

AJ
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  #33  
Old 04-28-2009, 01:17 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

NFG

Quote:
You DON'T have to load to the 68KPSI Lapua pressures ALL the time.

You DON'T have to load to the 3.8" factory COAL.
You are correct in that statement, however you miss the point. When people here YOU CAN do that mod, THEY WILL run 68 PSI or more every dang time. They never hear or see the restrictions. We have people here pressure testing by increasing powder until the bolt locks up and then back off 2 grains and telling others to do it, so mild loads are not the norm.

No one is going to the trouble of building a 338 Lapua to run 338 Win Mag ballistics. That just does not pass the common sense test EVEN though you can.

In this thread we have info that it has been done successfully twice, and yet ZERO restrictions were mentioned. So the clear implication is that there was none! "Go for it and load to max" is what the uninformed person hears.

I spent 24 years pushing the envelope in SF. I walked away from most of them (carried away more than once also) and since retired. Most others would not make it. I would never tell them they can do certain things because I know they will not make it and do not have the experience to follow the necessary restrictions/rules even though IT CAN be done.

The internet is a wonderful tool but a little common sense has to be used with promoting "questionable practices", as all the novice will hear is "I can do that!" and he will never hear the restrictions, otherwise you are doing nothing but helping select candidates for the next Darwin awards.

BH
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  #34  
Old 04-28-2009, 04:42 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Quote:
If you would have ponyed this specific information up a few days ago when I ask for it, it would have made my efforts much easier. I had no way of knowing the Rc values of either the lugs OR the receiver ...
I did in fact post that info, in the link on page 2. The action hardness was not posted but the lugs are at the limit anyway. I was planning to verify the hardness on some of the Savage/Stevens actions and bolt heads through a local independant tester but learned I couldn't because it is a destructive test on the action. Being a hollow tube, deflection will give false high readings and I'm not willing to cut a sliver off.

I'm not ruffled with you NFG, just very concerned for those that may jump into this thinking its safe while several engineers say it is not safe and one well respected gunsmith stating actual experience with lug setback. These guys are simply not wrong and their professionalism stops them from posting specifics. I'm sure they would need to run many tests before they would be willing to post data.
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  #35  
Old 04-28-2009, 04:49 PM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Rob,

Maybe I missed something in the other posts, but NFG's explanation is what moved this discussion from "it shouldn't be done" to "this is why it shouldn't be done".

AJ
__________________
If some is good and more is better, then too much is just right.


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Last edited by AJ Peacock; 04-28-2009 at 05:00 PM.
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