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338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

 
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  #15  
Old 04-25-2009, 12:28 PM
NFG NFG is offline
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

No, No, No, Yes...several times specifically in the "olden days" when we didn't have all this "good" information available at your finger tips...it was pretty much the only way to to actually find out just how far "way too far" was.

I see I posted the wrong Lazzeroni caliber...I had considered the 10.57 at one time for a rechamber (way to pricey for this cheap ol' boy) and it stuck in my mind, I was refering to the factory available (at one time) Lazzeroni cartridge...Sorry.

I was asking questions and positing arguments specifically to extract/elicit usefull information... NOT to get in someones face...seems history keeps repeating itself...questions many times are misconstrued if asked of an "authority figure"..."Do what I say..."My way or the highway..." or in this case " "you don't know nothing..." unless you fall into a certain catagory and have "proved" it...and using negatives to prove a positive is live and well and continuous in "etherland".

The problem seems boils down to pressure and what the Savage action is perceived/engineered??? to be safe at...

Again...I ask the question...rhetorically, of course... "If the Lazzeroni Warbird was once chambered, and seemed to work OK...WHY was it discontinued??? Was it because of "CATASTROPHIC FAILURE", because it was an expensive, proprietory cartridge, it kicked the HE** out of anyone shooting it, the consumer base was too small to continue offering it, engineering problems...OR the lawyers got involved...pretty much moot now.

Whenever the word "catastrophic" rears it's head you know the lawyers aren't far behind.

I think I did make it clear that "I DON'T RECOMMEND ANYONE DOING ANYTHING THAT IS UNSAFE AND I MAKE CERTAIN WHAT I DO IS SAFE TO BEGIN WITH"...I wasn't telling ANYONE to build, or it was OK to build a 338 Lapua using a Savage LA...besides "culpable negligence" would be the deciding factor here...If I or anyone built something dangerous and got wasted, it is on "our" heads...all the "Weasle Words" apply.

AGAIN...I was asking questions, positing arguments for SPECIFIC information...at least the insurance information came closer to a "specific" reason...not really what I was looking for tho'.

By the way...I may not be a "certified, licensed mechanical engineer" but I am fairly well educated and know the nuances of the "number system"...almost a "Welding engineer" but ran out of time and money before I could finish the degree...besides it really doesn't matter...I've know quite a few "self educated" or educated in the "college of hard knocks" that are fully capable of understanding "engineering first principles"...they, like me, weren't able to complete a "formal" education, but still seemed to function quite well in the real world.

I might also point out that Ruger, Remington, Mauser ALL have bolt bodies of 0.700" plus or minus a couple thou" and receiver chamber end OD's of 1.350" or smaller and all of them have been chambered for cartridges of the 338 Lapua size or larger and ballistic capabilities...in fact I can slide all those bolts into my Savage LA...they won't close because the bolt lengths are too short to fit into the bolt lug recess...maybe a magnum length bolt would, but I don't have a magnum length Rem, mauser or Ruger bolt to try...maybe someone might just for the informational aspect...so the bolt body argument, while having some merit can be easily argued.

I'm still looking for a SPECIFIC reason that can't be addressed in some manor.

My last post on the subject also, I can see this dog has been beaten to death and isn't very well received.

Luck on your projects.

Last edited by NFG; 04-25-2009 at 01:20 PM.
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  #16  
Old 04-26-2009, 10:50 AM
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Savage Forum thread.
Are there any long action large shank Savages?
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  #17  
Old 04-26-2009, 02:10 PM
NFG NFG is offline
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Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

Looks like it wasn't my last post...

Thank You Rob, for the thread link...I read that one...I don't want to sound like a jerk, but most of the "stuff" on that thread was total and complete KRAP. I don't think any of those peole ever heard of a lathe or a mill and the ability of a machinist to do just about anything they want with a piece of steel. And they were referencing FACTORY parts for the most part anyway, or the "dire consequences rhetoric".

I think I have addressed ALL the issues that I could find presented in all the posts I read if you or anyone bother to look hard, with an mind open to all possibilities.

All the major ones boiled down to pressure, receiver/magazine length and the bolt face/lugs.

Here is a picture addressing the bolt face and the magazine length, for the project I an doing right now.



Again. This will be a 500 AR...loaded to 45-55 KPSI, but can be chambered to the 338 Lapua just as easily, WITHIN SPECIFIC CONSTRAINTS. The bolt face measure 0.600" ID, the "ring" measures 0.045". A simple grinding operation with a lathe, ANY machinist can do.

The magazine is a standard factory available 375 H&H length (3.60" max is what I used for my 375 H&H depending on the bullet and where I want to seat it, some are much shorter) from the olden days...still available today from the factory AND from Midway and (I think) as the 300 RUM mag...just needs some work opening/grinding the lips.

The 300 WM mag box has a max COAL of 3.44". I KNOW, I just measured one and have several and chopped up a few make longer mags. The only difference in the mags is where the ridges are positioned for the various shoulder points.

The matter of the number of larger diameter cartridge fitting in the mag is easily addressed for anyone who actually had worked with modifying rifle magazines or has done any kind of gunwork except for those sitting in front of a monitory and getting all their expertize off the net...besides you can load two Rigby sized cases down WITHOUT ANY mods in the factory mag or follower. If you want another cartridge down then things get a little more involved but not complicated and can be done by ANY with a modicum of manual dexterity.

The garbage about the bolt diameter and the lugs I covered in the last post. It is pressure dependent anyway. Anyone look at the SAMMI MAP pressure for the RUM AND the LAPUA cartridges??? If you haven't, please do!!!, then understand that the pressure is adjustable.

The issue of cartridge length is nothing but seating the COAL to work through the mag, bullet OAL length dependent, OR another magazine can be made...relatively simply...the action is capable of a max COAL of 3.8 - 3.9" with a few SIMPLE mods.

AND AGAIN.

I AM NOT ADVOCATING ANYONE DO THIS CONVERSION...ANY KIND OF CONVERSION TO/FROM A FACTORY RECEIVER/CARTRIDGE CASE IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS...JUST THAT IT IS EASILY POSSIBLE AND SAFELY ACCOMPLISHED CONSTRAINED BY CERTAIN PARAMETERS, THAT SHOULD BE FULLY UNDERSTOOD BY ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE WILDCATTING OF A CARTRIDGE OR A RECEIVER...OR ANYONE RELOADING FOR THAT MATTER.

I apologize(somewhat) for being short and direct...I really get fed up with some of the armchair gunsmiths "Re-Petes" blowing fertilizer all over the place and claiming to be "experts"...I've been doing this wildcatting "stuff" for over 50 years and working with the Savage since the early '60's.

I don't claim to be any sort of Savage "expert", but I sure the **** check out the facts, empirically, with my own two hands and brain, BEFORE I do something or say something can be accomplished. I try to give direct factual answers to direct questions and expect direct FACTUAL answers to questions I ask. Of course I blow it sometimes and when I see that, I own up.

What I got wasn't anything like that, more like being placed in the position of a dependent child and a lot of "stuff" that wasn't germain. I'm a long way from being ANY dependent.

I will post pictures of the final product, targers and ballistics date, for anyone interested, on Accurate Reloading - Big Bore forum under Savage 500 AR probably sometime late Jun or July.

Luck on your projects.

Last edited by NFG; 04-26-2009 at 02:50 PM.
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  #18  
Old 04-26-2009, 03:33 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Dayton, Nevada
Posts: 1,798
Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

NFG, I believe you are the one that is not being open minded.

The thread that Rob posted contained very sound advice from the most prominent "Savage Expert".

Fred said.

"I get this question 15 times a week. The short answer is no, the Savage action was never engineered for cases that big. I have discussed this with several engineers and custom action builders, that all came to the same conclusion. A case of that size needs a .750" diameter bolt, and a 1-1/8" barrel shank, minimum.
I know from personal experience on a gun that I built for myself that after less than 100 rounds, it experienced lug set-back. There is not enough surface area on the bolt lugs for that kind of pressure, let alone enough to provide a cushion for over pressure.
There are several custom action makers that will build express actions for those class of cartridges. Probably the most reasonable is Stiller's Precision firearms. Sako made some in .338 Lapua, in a tactical rifle.
The .338 Lapua seems to intrigue alot of shooters that "must have one", but I would suggest before you jump in with both feet, find someone that has one and beg to shoot it first. You might change your mind about what fun is all about."

Why are you ignoring his advice?

I'll admit I am just an armchair gunsmith as well, but I'm fair with math. Since the RUM case heads are about 15% smaller by area of the Lapua, wouldn't you need to reduce the case pressure by 15% to maintain the same safe load on the lugs?
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  #19  
Old 04-26-2009, 04:51 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PEI Canada
Posts: 72
Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

NFG, I have 3 mills and a lathe at my home shop and yes I have built a .338 Lapua on a Savage. The machinist work is very simple, no doubt about that. I make no time to argue with those that deflect the truth. Take the info provided as you like. Here's another piece of advise for you to do whatever you like with. That is a Beryllium Copper extractor in the pic that needs to be modified, I'd get a new steel one and modify that instead. Oh yes, fairly sure the crosspin is not installed in that bolt assembly in the pic but if it is, you have more work to do if the rear baffle is in its detent.

Shoot safe,
Cheers,
Rob
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  #20  
Old 04-26-2009, 09:38 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 258
Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

I have been on the other site mentioned for a few years. I have received a bunch of "that can't be done" answers also. My favorite one is the whole "You can't retrofit an accutrigger to the older action". Why because I heard someone said it wont work". Or "The factory said not to do it". Well the factory also says not to change a barrel, but everyone does it. I have retrofit that trigger to the older actions like 9 times now, it is quite easy. Donít get me wrong I love the ss site. I kind asked the same question as you with the same points you pointed out and got the same "informed answers" you got. I have only talked to 2 people that have tried and they were both successful, and have yet to hear of one failing. Not saying it should be done, just saying.
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  #21  
Old 04-27-2009, 12:05 AM
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Location: Dayton, Nevada
Posts: 1,798
Re: 338 lapua Build advice sav 110/stevens 200

I don't think anyone said it could not be done.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

My VW bug will go 100mph, but that doesn't make it a Porsche.
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