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.308 Project -seeking advice-

 
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  #8  
Old 07-28-2010, 07:43 PM
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Location: Falls Church, VA
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Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Hi gent's-

That's why I am here; for knowledge I don't have. I don't know exactly what I need for this build. All I can say is I would like this rifle to be as accurate as I can but I don't want to be limmited to one grain size. I would even like to be able to shoot a hunting cartridge out of it if I had to vs. a match grade if need be if that makes sense. I shoot the M24 from time to time and we don't always have match grade rounds and every once in a while we shoot some of the linked 240 ammo.

I am seeking good input on what it is I need so when I talk to the smith I know what I am getting in to.

I really appreciate all the replies. It's nice when you have some guidance especially with so much money in play.

Thanks a million!
RiP
ok...so you want to build a kind-of all-around rifle in 308.

Your supply list is a good one. If you don't want to be limited to one size bullet, have your barrel throated for the 168 sierra match king bullets and get a 1:11 barrel twist. The 168 is a good mid-size bullet (308 bullets generally range from 155 to 210). by throating for that bullet, you will be able to load pretty much all the various bullets and not give up too much case capacity.

With a 1:11 twist you will be able to shoot any weight bullet and stabilize it out past 1k yards.

Are you understanding the technical aspect of 'free-bore' of synonymously 'throating' your barrel?

Do you understand how the rate of twist in your barrel affects what weight bullets you can shoot?

By virtue of doing a custom build, it pretty much goes without saying that your gunsmith will attempt to build the most accurate rifle possible. His reputation depends on it. Given that, you will be able to shoot any 308 ammo in your rifle you want. The only issue will be whether or not it will shoot a given ammo accurately.

A good gunsmith will take the time to go every decision with you in detail and make sure you understand the implications of all your decisions. One of the keys is to ask open ended questions. For instance, I thinking 28" barrel - what do you think?
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Last edited by trebark; 07-28-2010 at 07:46 PM.
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  #9  
Old 07-28-2010, 09:54 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fort Carson, CO
Posts: 62
Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebark View Post
ok...so you want to build a kind-of all-around rifle in 308.

Your supply list is a good one. If you don't want to be limited to one size bullet, have your barrel throated for the 168 sierra match king bullets and get a 1:11 barrel twist. The 168 is a good mid-size bullet (308 bullets generally range from 155 to 210). by throating for that bullet, you will be able to load pretty much all the various bullets and not give up too much case capacity.

With a 1:11 twist you will be able to shoot any weight bullet and stabilize it out past 1k yards.

Are you understanding the technical aspect of 'free-bore' of synonymously 'throating' your barrel?

Do you understand how the rate of twist in your barrel affects what weight bullets you can shoot?

By virtue of doing a custom build, it pretty much goes without saying that your gunsmith will attempt to build the most accurate rifle possible. His reputation depends on it. Given that, you will be able to shoot any 308 ammo in your rifle you want. The only issue will be whether or not it will shoot a given ammo accurately.

A good gunsmith will take the time to go every decision with you in detail and make sure you understand the implications of all your decisions. One of the keys is to ask open ended questions. For instance, I thinking 28" barrel - what do you think?
With that list I provided; is it all compatible? What I mean is; will the R700 bottom metal assembly, the Timney trigger and action I specified work together?

As far as your questions #1 and #2 the answer is not even close. The only thing I know about twist rate is how many times your bullet completes a 1 full rotation before exiting the muzzle. As far as weight is concerned I have no clue.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I am here to learn and mybe some day I will atleast know the basic's to this and maybe even attend a few classes at school of trades in CO and learn a trick or two.

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate the time and patience,
RiP
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  #10  
Old 07-28-2010, 10:22 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church, VA
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Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
With that list I provided; is it all compatible? What I mean is; will the R700 bottom metal assembly, the Timney trigger and action I specified work together?
I think everything you have is compatible. Your gunsmith might have some personal issues with some of your items - but they always do. If a smith has a bad experience with an item or company, they will often prefer not to work with it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
As far as your questions #1 the answer is not even close.
#1 - take a look at a loaded 308 cartridge and imagine it in the chamber of your rifle. This pic might explain better. Notice that the lighter bullet has more space in front of it before it reaches the lands and grooves of the barrel, whereas the heavier bullet actually touches the lands and grooves. Also notice that the base of ALL the bullets is in the same place. By having a lot of freebore, you are able to seat the heavy bullets farther out of the so they do not take up much case space. The advantage to a lot of freebore is that you are able to seat the bullets farther out and not take up any more case capacity than a lighter bullet. The downside of a lot of freebore is that if you want to shoot the lighter bullets, they will have a lot of 'jump' before the bullets engages the lands/grooves of the barrel (this can negatively effect accuracy). Given that in 308, bullets range from 155 to 210 grains, it would probably be good to throat your barrel for a 168grain bullet since it's about in the middle and a very common bullet weight for the 308. Make sense?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
#2 - The only thing I know about twist rate is how many times your bullet completes a 1 full rotation before exiting the muzzle. As far as weight is concerned I have no clue.
Imagine a quarterback throwing a football. Notice that when he throws the ball short distances, the ball does not (nor does it need to) rotate very fast in order to remain stable until the receiver catches the ball. Then imagine a 60 pass where the QB really heaves the ball down the field. Notice how the ball rotates very fast - in order to keep it in stable flight all the way to the receiver. Barrels and bullets work the same way. In order to keep a heavy bullet stable for long distances, it needs to be spinning faster than a lighter bullet. If you're building an all-around rifle in 308, you will want a rate of twist the is fast enough for heavy bullets, yet not so fast that it doesn't over spin the lighter bullets. A good compromise for the 308 is 1:11. Make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I am here to learn and mybe some day I will atleast know the basic's to this and maybe even attend a few classes at school of trades in CO and learn a trick or two.
No worries - always glad to help. It wasn't long ago that I was in your situation and counted on help from this site in order to learn.

Keep the questions coming.
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  #11  
Old 07-29-2010, 05:56 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fort Carson, CO
Posts: 62
Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebark View Post
I think everything you have is compatible. Your gunsmith might have some personal issues with some of your items - but they always do. If a smith has a bad experience with an item or company, they will often prefer not to work with it again.



#1 - take a look at a loaded 308 cartridge and imagine it in the chamber of your rifle. This pic might explain better. Notice that the lighter bullet has more space in front of it before it reaches the lands and grooves of the barrel, whereas the heavier bullet actually touches the lands and grooves. Also notice that the base of ALL the bullets is in the same place. By having a lot of freebore, you are able to seat the heavy bullets farther out of the so they do not take up much case space. The advantage to a lot of freebore is that you are able to seat the bullets farther out and not take up any more case capacity than a lighter bullet. The downside of a lot of freebore is that if you want to shoot the lighter bullets, they will have a lot of 'jump' before the bullets engages the lands/grooves of the barrel (this can negatively effect accuracy). Given that in 308, bullets range from 155 to 210 grains, it would probably be good to throat your barrel for a 168grain bullet since it's about in the middle and a very common bullet weight for the 308. Make sense?





Imagine a quarterback throwing a football. Notice that when he throws the ball short distances, the ball does not (nor does it need to) rotate very fast in order to remain stable until the receiver catches the ball. Then imagine a 60 pass where the QB really heaves the ball down the field. Notice how the ball rotates very fast - in order to keep it in stable flight all the way to the receiver. Barrels and bullets work the same way. In order to keep a heavy bullet stable for long distances, it needs to be spinning faster than a lighter bullet. If you're building an all-around rifle in 308, you will want a rate of twist the is fast enough for heavy bullets, yet not so fast that it doesn't over spin the lighter bullets. A good compromise for the 308 is 1:11. Make sense?



No worries - always glad to help. It wasn't long ago that I was in your situation and counted on help from this site in order to learn.

Keep the questions coming.
Hi trebark,

Again thanks for putting the time forth explaining things and the picture helped out extremely with better understanding.

I am on order with Manner's and need some help ordering the stock. They needed some information I didn't have all of when I needed it. They needed my LOP and of course I have no idea how to measure for that at all. They needed to know what "barrel contour?" I was going to go with as well and I didn't have that information either. The only information I gave her was that it was a R700 bottom metal assembly. I felt like a jerkoff. She said it was no problem that I had plenty of time to change anything I needed to.

For now it's one thing at a time and I guess I have to crawl before I can walk and so on...

-For this stock I need to know what barrel company and contour I am going to be using? Am I saying this right?

-I also need to find out my LOP even know I have a funny feeling I am pretty standard as far as arm reach "I am guessing that is what it is to trigger finger"?

My biggest question I would like to have some advice on is I have found several different bottom metal's now since I have been learning more about them reading around. I learned that Manner's actually has their own bottom metal's but I don't know how they match up against the other's I have found.
The nice thing about going with the Manner's if I chose them is is built by Badger and Manner's installs it free of charge.

So some advice would be greatly appreciated in choosing my bottom metal and figuring out a good barrel and contour to go with.

So with that being said let me ask opinion on these option's for the BMA's:

1. Tactical Rifles - Reading about sounds like tank

2. Surgeon Rifles - Low-profile ambidextrous magazine release sounds nice

3. Manners Stocks - Built by badger; installed free of charge by Manner's.

4. Other? Badger Ordnance?

The sooner I get all of this information the better I would imagine. I am strongly considering calling Manners and going with theirs.


One good thing is they took my email being a us.army.mil they told me I was going to get a mil discount. I have no idea how much it is but it's still nice.



I REALLY appreciate the time and schooling me up to par. I am learning a lot really fast.

Thanks again trebark and rest,
RiP
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  #12  
Old 07-29-2010, 06:20 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Cheyenne
Posts: 513
Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

Quote:
I am on order with Manner's and need some help ordering the stock. They needed some information I didn't have all of when I needed it. They needed my LOP and of course I have no idea how to measure for that at all. They needed to know what "barrel contour?" I was going to go with as well and I didn't have that information either. The only information I gave her was that it was a R700 bottom metal assembly. I felt like a jerkoff. She said it was no problem that I had plenty of time to change anything I needed to.
Don't sweat it. I guarantee you're not the first newbie they've talked to and helped.
Quote:
-For this stock I need to know what barrel company and contour I am going to be using? Am I saying this right?
Yes. Contours are numbers (#1, #5) or they're things like "Palma," "Light Palma."

Here's Krieger's list: Contours

Here's a weight calculator so you can see what changing lengths and contours does to your weight. PAC-NOR Barreling, Inc. - Barrel Contours
Quote:
-I also need to find out my LOP even know I have a funny feeling I am pretty standard as far as arm reach "I am guessing that is what it is to trigger finger"?
Yes. Rear of the buttstock to trigger. Go to a gunstore and shoulder all the rifles you can. Take notes of the make and models that feel best then go home and look up their LOP. Average is 13.5" to 14.0".

Quote:
I learned that Manner's actually has their own bottom metal's but I don't know how they match up against the other's I have found.
Manners DBM is different than other bottom metals you listed. It's actually a chassis/bedding block, a la an Accuracy International or Bell & Carlson stock.

I've never heard of Tactical Rifles DBM. Not saying it's not good, but I've not heard of it.

Surgeon and Badger M5 both accept AICS mags. They're both top quality, so look at the methods of release and such to decide between those. Seekins was also rumored to be coming out with a DBM for AICS mags. I've got his regular DBM and magazine. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet to tell you much about its performance.

Here's a thread about the Manners chassis.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...Number=1662665
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV8Hae4e_Qo

Last edited by NomadPilot; 07-29-2010 at 07:12 PM.
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  #13  
Old 07-29-2010, 08:06 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church, VA
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Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

First thing....don't worry about ordering the stock. Work out what you want with your gunsmith and have HIM order it. I'm sure that they will give you the military discount although you might have to make a call after your gunsmith orders the stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I am on order with Manner's and need some help ordering the stock. They needed some information I didn't have all of when I needed it. They needed my LOP and of course I have no idea how to measure for that at all.
Nomad is right. Length of pull is the distance from buttstock to trigger. Try to find rifles with different LOP and try them all and in different positions (standing, sitting/kneeling, prone). Find a length that works for you.

Quote:
They needed to know what "barrel contour?" I was going to go with as well and I didn't have that information either.
Again, don't sweat it. Work this detail out with your gunsmith. Generally speaking, the heavier your barrel, the stiffer it will be and the conventional wisdom says it will be more consistant. Of course,the fatter the barrel, the heavier. If you want an all-around rifle, you will want a mid-size barrel. While you're out checking out LOP on rifles, take a look at their barrels. Generally barrels are 1.25" at the action and taper down from there so measure the muzzle diameters.

How barrel contours are described will be different with virtually every barrel company out there. For instance Krieger numbers their's 1 thru 5. I have a Hart that is a #4 Douglas Taper and it is nowhere near what a Krieger #4 is.

Quote:
-For this stock I need to know what barrel company and contour I am going to be using? Am I saying this right?
Yes. But like I said - don't sweat it. Let your gunsmith order the stock.

Quote:
-I also need to find out my LOP even know I have a funny feeling I am pretty standard as far as arm reach "I am guessing that is what it is to trigger finger"?
You probably are 'standard.' I am 6' 2" with long arms. So my rifles have a fairly long length of pull at 14.5". Most of my buddies in the 5' 10 to 6' range use 13.5 to 13.75.

Quote:
My biggest question I would like to have some advice on is I have found several different bottom metal's now since I have been learning more about them reading around. I learned that Manner's actually has their own bottom metal's but I don't know how they match up against the other's I have found.
The nice thing about going with the Manner's if I chose them is is built by Badger and Manner's installs it free of charge.
None of my rifles have detachable magazines and I quite frankly don't know much about them. I do know that my gunsmith really likes the Wyatt's extended box magazines.

Quote:
figuring out a good barrel and contour to go with
Currently I have two rifles. One is my 'carry' rifle. It is chambered in 280Rem and has a 24" #4 douglas taper contour. The barrel is .650" at the muzzle. With the scope the rifle weighs 9lbs.

My other rifle is a 260 and it's my 'sit here and shoot there' rifle. Because I don't have plans to carry it around a lot, the barrel is 28" long and if you start from the action, it has 3" that are 1.25" in diameter, then tapers down to .875" at the muzzle. It also has a McMillan A3 stock. Overall this scope weighs about 14lbs.

My 260 was build from from a Rem700 SPS varmint rifle. The original barrel was factory Remington 26" and had a much quicker taper ending at the muzzle at .820". .820" at the muzzle is what Remington considers a varmint taper.

So as you can see, it depends on what you want as to the taper you choose. Given that you want an all-around rifle, you will probably want a taper that falls somewhere between my two barrels.

As an FYI...just to keep the conversation lively, none of this begins to discuss the various types of fluting you can have cut into your barrel.

To give you some ideas about barrel contours....

Here's a link to my 280...

My 280 - Updated!

and a link to my other rifle when it was a 308....

My 280 - Updated!

Finally, just for fun, here's a link to my nephew's rifle that wears a factory barrel from Remington. The barrel is their 'standard' and it is .657" at the muzzle.

Nephew's Transformed Rifle!

Also, to get a sense of what others have done in terms of barrel contour, check out the Gun Photos section and you will see/get lots of ideas for your rifle build.

Keep the questions coming.
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  #14  
Old 07-31-2010, 02:20 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fort Carson, CO
Posts: 62
Re: .308 Project -seeking advice-

Well lets hope I didn't screw up to bad. This is what I have so far that I can still change if need be.

1. Scope PR 3-15x56
Gen 2 mildot XR reticle 27 mil double turn MTC



2. Rings
30mm ZERO-GAPô Rings Medium (1.1")


2. Stock - MCS T4
Adj. butt spacer
Sling stud install
Bipod stud install



3. Bipod
x-caliber x-vip LC-EL-TS


4. BO-M5-BM




Comments / Sudgestion's - Keem'em comming please!

Cheers,
RiP
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