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308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

 
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  #1  
Old 01-20-2005, 12:18 PM
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308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

If I get a real nice custom rifle in 308 Baer, how far will it cleanly kill a large white tail buck? 1200 yards? Further? Where do you absolutely have to go to the 338's? 1200 yards and beyond?

I am real new...

Thanks
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Old 01-20-2005, 04:32 PM
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Re: 308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

DixieFreedom,

The 300 Baer would be capable of cleanly killing a mature whitetail at any range the bullet is really above supersonic velocities.

Since you are asking about extreme range shooting distances, I assume you are looking at using the VLD or ULD bullet designs which are made for this specific reason.

I have not run the numbers but I would imaging the 300 Baer loaded with a 210 to 250 gr VLD or ULD bullet would stay super sonic out to 1700 to 1800 yards, that would be a 220 gr SMK loaded to 2800 fps.

The velocity needs to stay super sonic for accuracy and consistancy reasons. A properly stabilized bullet fired out of a quality rifle will stay amazingly predictable in flight until it hits the sonic barrer.

Now a 220 gr pill traveling at near 1100 fps will easily penetrate a mature whitetail. The amount of tissue damage will ne small because the bullet simply will not expand but if the shot is placed through the vitals of a deer, it will most assuredly cleanly kill the animal, especially if the animal is in an unexcited state of mind at the shot which they have to be for taking a quality long range shot.

Now does this mean you could buy a rifle and take it out and snipe whitetails at 1700 yards, it ain't quite that simple. Scoring a vital hit at even 800 yards is a challange and only suitable for the most experienced marksman.

I have heard of very few legitimate shots on big game much past 1100 yards. There are some out there but several times as many BS stories.

Potential wise, your looking at a round that could harvest deer out to the 1 mile mark as far as energy and penetration goes. The bullet still needs to land in the right spot though.

As far as moving up to the 338 class of extreme range rifles, for deer hunting, there really is no reason to use a 338 other then larger frontal area and higher B.C. values. As far as cleanly killing a deer, wither will work great well past 1200 yards.

The only time I would say that the 338 class of rounds is a nessesity is if game the size og elk are being hunted at ranges out to 1000 yards. Then the added frontal area and higher degree of penetration would be a measureable advantage over the 30 cal magnums.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Old 01-20-2005, 06:43 PM
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Re: 308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

Godd advice Kirby! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 01-22-2005, 09:03 PM
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Re: 308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

Thanks!

Let me ask directly then.

Which caliber should I invest in? I am only going to be able to put together ONE long distance rifle. I ain't rich.

So which would you build?

I was talking to the orginator of the 308 Baer, Bruce Baer and he is partial to his wildcat. He says it is better than the RUM's because you have more brass options for the 308baer which is based on the 8mm remmag. He also says his cartridge will nearly do the RUM velocities but with 10 grains less powder. Those are logical reasons.

But what about a run of the mill 338 for long range hunting at 1000 plus? How many options and which is best?

The more I study the more I am inclined to look even harder at the Lapua.

Just how much does brass for that rascal cost anyhow? Are the Lapua's capable of extraordinary accuracy?

Thank you very much for your informative reply!
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Old 01-22-2005, 10:02 PM
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Re: 308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

Dixie

IMO to get the full benefit of the lapua you need a custom action to handle the case head and a long barrel 30"+. I know some people build the lapua off the Rem 700 but "I" just don't feel comfortable with it.

I built a 338 Lapua single shot off a Geske action. To utilize the potential of the Lapua "I believe" you need to seat the bullets out farther than any mag will offer hence why i went single shot way.

The cheapest that i have found on Lapua brass is at Bruno's at $1.18 a piece. Dependind on what bullets you want you are looking at $35-$50 per 100 or around $150 for 500 count 300gr. sierra's. I use to use the Sierra's but am using Richard Graves 300 ULD bullets. They are a bit more but well worth it in my eyes. He is suppose to be getting a new die to be able to make a true .338 diameter bullet to help reduce fowling and pressure.

Any gun is accurate if you put the time and effort into it IMHO.

If you want to go the 338 way i would reccomend the Lapua if not i would Look into a .30 cal. The 300 Ultra mag would be my choice with 30"+ barrel.
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Old 01-22-2005, 11:58 PM
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Re: 308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

DixieFreedom,

Personally I do not think you need a 338 unless you simply want one. Ballisticly and terminally you do not have a requirement for a 338 class round. Still, there is never anything wrong with a little more gun then is needed.

The 308 Baer is a great design but it will not run with a 300RUM. In fact in sub 30" barrels, the 300 RUM will run closer to the 30-378 then the Baer class of rounds.

Still velocity is really not a big deal here, all have plenty of Horsepower to get the job done at extreme range.

Personally, I would recommend staying away from the standard belted magnum case simply because of the variation of the headspace measurement from one brand or even lot of brass compared to another.

I have built several of my Extreme Sporters in teh 257 STW and I like to cut my chambers to min spec to the highest level of accuracy and case life possible.

In so doing, about 15% of the standard belted magnum cases would be very tight closing in teh chamber because of this dimension variation as the belt would bare hard against the chamber.

Because of this, the oversized brass needed to be sorted out. This little problem can be solved by simply lengthening the chamber, something I do not like to do.

To solve the problem in a better manor, I decided to design my 257 Allen Magnum which is based on a 338 RUM case with a highly modified shoulder angle and diameter.

These cases still have some variation in length but even if the case is tight chambering, after fireforming, the case conformed to the chamber and chambered easily. Something the Bellted Magnum brass will never do.

If your looking for a 338 I would look two directions, the RUM and the Lapua. In the RUM case I would go with either the standard 338 RUM or the 338-300 RUM wildcat which is an identical ballistic Twin to the 338 Lapua. They have identical case capacities.

For a single shot I have no problem building a Rem 700 chambered for the Lapua. For a repeater I would recommend a custom action.

This is the beauty of the 338-300 RUM or the 338 Edge which is the brain child of Shawn Carlock who is on this board regularly as Shawn C.

This round provides identical performance as the Lapua but it is more comfortable in the Rem 700 both in single shot and repeater and brass is much less costly.

I fully admit that 338 Lapua brass will be better for extreme range shooting right out of the box then the RUM brass, but with a little case prepping, the RUM brass will perform just as well.

In a quality rifle, they would produce equal accuracy results.

My personal extreme range 338 is a 338 Kahn built as a single shot on a highly modified Rem 700 action. IT drives a 300 gr ULD to an honest 3100 fps but it also has a 1.350" straight cylinder, 34.5" barrel.

I would recommend a 30" barrel of about a #8 contour(.900" muzzle). Any heavier then that or longer then that and you will need either a custom action or you should use a barrel bedding V-Block like my Kahn uses. It has to for the Rem 700 to handle a barrel that weights roughly 15 lbs alone. The receiver is then totally floated from the stock.

This is an extreme round though, much larger then the RUM or Lapua class of rounds as it gets 3100 fps very comfortably in pressure.

For my money I would get a #8 Lilja with a 30" finish length, and fit it to a fully accurized Rem 700 action, I would prefer single shot set up. The stock would eb up to you. What ever you like. I personally love the McMillan MBR stock but they are very large and more then some like in a rifle.

As far caliber, if it was a 30 cal. I would go with a 1-9 twist for the 220 to 250 gr ULD bullets. If it were in 338 I would probably go with a 338-300 RUM again with a 1-9" twist for the 300 gr ULD bullets.

For extreme range shooting, well past 1000 yards, it would be a rifle exactly like my Kahn built on a V-Block.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #7  
Old 01-23-2005, 03:04 PM
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Re: 308 Baer- What will it kill? How far?

Thank you all very much- these are very informative posts. I am going to print this thread out and talk about all the points you all raise with the gun smith I know.

Thanks again.
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