Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics


Reply

300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 04-21-2013, 02:49 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,903
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

You must be wrong Marc. I saw it right here that Win 70 actions are the ones to have and use....there is nothing better..?????
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-21-2013, 03:49 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NW MT
Posts: 2,587
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

I have 3 buds that all shoot 1000 penn. One won a match one year with a 100 4+ inch group,the other 2 have shot many records.The one 7 WR.They shoot mostly stiller viper drop port, and some defiance,favor Kriiegers.The one guy usually sends his 10 in about 10 seconds,thats his style.He has a stack of targets under 3''.The last match 3-100's where shot.Which he said was rare with wind holds and such.I could hit Defiance from my house with sling shot...so I have a couple,they are doing some cool stuff with integrated rail and lug
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-21-2013, 05:18 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcS View Post
Bart that is phenomenal shooting sir.
Thanks

Quote:
I much prefer the 700 for a number of reasons. Most machinist gun builders who decide to venture into making custom receivers generally feel the same way and go with the 700 style or design as a base or starting point.
And the 700's were commercially available. Win. 70 were not. Closest thing about anybody buying Win 70 actions was back in the 1950's when they made 20 classic magnum length single-shot ones with no magazine cutout; solid steel in that area. Sold 'em to the US Army for use in their 30 caliber magnum 1000 yard prone rifles. Remmies are cheap to make and they wanted to flood the market with them; they did as they cost 1/3 to 1/2 what a Winnie would. And their use with the .222 Rem. in benchrest matches outperforming anything else available at reasonable cost glued their names in the minds of sellers and buyers. Remmie's barrels in their sporters were much more accurate than either the broach cut or hammer forged Winnie barrels. Many folks tried to talk Winchester into improving their barrels but they did not. Only their 30 caliber match barrels shot oversize bullets really good because their groove diameters were bigger than virtually all commercial bullets. Both of Olin's companies, Winchester and Western Cartridge Company, knew about this and their match bullets were almost .309" diameter while their sporting and hunting ones were .308" or smaller. Remmie barrels were tighter and therefore their better accuracy was easy to see with virtually all commercially available bullets.

Meanwhile, I'll give my reasons for liking the Winnie better than the Remmie following specific areas you mention:

Quote:
-I like the push feed more than the controlled feed design for throwing another round in and slamming the bolt closed. It doesn't need to be stripped up from the magazine.
I and many others havd thrown a round into a classic controlled feed Winnie in rapid fire matches and closed the bolt easily. The cutout in the barrel tenon lets the claw extractor designed to do this easily ride out and back into the case rim; their face is angled to do that. 'Twas designed that way.

Quote:
-I like the recessed bolt nose counter bore style of a 700 and the "3 rings of steel" concept as opposed to the flat bolt head and flat breech chamber opening of the 70..
Seeings how the cartridge case is the weakest part of the rifle-ammo system and smart reloaders don't go with hot loads, that's not an issue. Winnies and Remmies are good for over 120,000 to 130,000 psi receiver and bolt wise.

Quote:
-I prefer the larger diameter threaded barrel tennon of the 700..
Non issue.

Quote:
-I prefer the 700 trigger..
Put an Anschutz Biathlon trigger on a Winnie and nothing else will come close to repeatability, feel and reliability; they're popular on Palma rifles needing a 3.5 pound trigger.

Quote:
-I prefer the 700 round design when I'm doing a pillar bedding job but this is really not important..
Dozens (hundreds?) of those round Winnies twisted loose from conventional epoxy bedding when folks tried to use them with 30 caliber rounds with bullets heavier than 160 grains. The military teams tried 2-inch long recoil lugs on their Remmies to keep the 30 caliber magnums from twisting out of bedding after a couple hundred shots. Only when sleeved with flat bottom/sides on the aluminum block did the hold bedding. Pillar bedding helps. Conventional epoxy bedding is good enough for the Winnies; they hold bedding for a few barrels easily.

Quote:
-I don't like the large notch cut into the barrel threads and partially into the chamber of the 70 for that giant claw extractor. I don't like anything about the claw extractor for that matter. The 700 extractor is also not very impressive so I like to have a little m-16 style claw extractor installed..
Winnie's extractors are more reliable than the M16 claw and a lot more than the Remmie's. Besides, they are nice for single round loading and extracting; holds the empty case in the receiver so it can be easily pulled out and put away. Wish I had a sawbuck for every Remmie extractor breaking in matches. Never heard of a Winnie breaking.

Quote:
-The 70's are more popular in across the course high power rifles.
Their longer bolt's easier to operate in rapid fire, magazine fed rounds do so more reliable, easier to replace parts without tools and have the best safety going.

Quote:
- but 700's and custom actions based on the 700 design absolutely dominate tactical/practical/field rifle competition..
Only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention. Note the Armed Forces did not pick the Winnie for their new sniper rifle in the late '60's 'cause Winchester was in dire financial straits at the time. All the service team comptitors (many of whom were top level snipers) wanted the Winnie as it was (and still is) a more reliable platform and better suited for field maintnenace.

Quote:
-If one has the ability to pay for a custom action then it's certainly a better way to go. They dominate the field of high level accuracy games such as F class and bench rest competitions. The only reason not to shoot one is to save money on a budget based build..
It's only a more expensive way to go. They dominate the high level accuracy games only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention.

Did I forget to mention that a Remmie long action's only about 1/3rd as stiff/rigid a Winnie? Go measure both and find out for yourself.

I've seen more than a few 30 caliber magnum Remmie's recoil lug bent forward at the bottom. They need to be thicker and thicker/stronger ones are available. And when talking with some of South Africa's hunting guides, the horror stories of Remmie 458's recoil lugs bending were astonishing.

Last edited by Bart B; 04-21-2013 at 07:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-21-2013, 08:06 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,903
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

Some are so full of crap they cant even see it in their posting....geeze!

"It's only a more expensive way to go. They dominate the high level accuracy games only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention."..

...You stand face to face and tell the guys that machine their own customs actions that line of BS.

They are only better because people think they are better....LMAO.

Pass me that crack pipe Homer...I need a hit from it too
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-21-2013, 09:01 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sully2 View Post
Some are so full of crap they cant even see it in their posting....geeze!

"It's only a more expensive way to go. They dominate the high level accuracy games only because most folks think they're better and often for the reasons you mention."..

...You stand face to face and tell the guys that machine their own customs actions that line of BS.

They are only better because people think they are better....LMAO.

Pass me that crack pipe Homer...I need a hit from it too

" 2 "
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-21-2013, 09:53 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 25
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

Bart, with all due respect sir, I don't think you were paying attention to what I was saying. I said I "prefer" 700's. I stated personal opinions and preferences as just that. You stated yours as fact.

For example I never said the triggers on 70's weren't any good. That's because they're very good. I've tuned more than I can count and turned them into very sweet triggers without changing them out for aftermarket triggers. I still prefer 700 triggers, mainly because they're easier to adjust and it is mostly a single self contained unit that I can take it out without having a pile of tiny little parts. I didn't say that any certain things were "an issue". I didn't say that the skinny barrel tennons have a history of failure or that they can't handle pressure, or that the controlled feed will not function as an emergency top load, or that the claw extractor isn't reliable, the list goes on and on.

You also seem to talk a lot about what other shooters were doing and saying 40-60 years ago. You talk about what Army shooters were saying and using a long time ago. I was an Army shooter in the late eighties and early nineties and they aren't gods they're just shooters like us. I guess it always adds credit to any gun argument by saying it's what some military unit also likes :-)

I shoot and compete, today. I build rifles for a living, today. I build precision bolt rifles for F class, high power, tactical, snipers from law enforcement and some private contractors who can use what they want. From those groups I also build some lighter weight hunting rifles. Back in your day the pre '64 model 70 was the only rifle. The riflemans rifle. I get that. I grew up in a house hearing that from my dad for years and years. If he was here today I'm sure he'd blindly agree with you LOL.

The fact remains that in the world of custom action manufacturing where highly skilled and knowledgeable machinists and engineers strive to create the best receivers they are capable of building regardless of cost or level of difficulty, they use the 700 as a base design more often than any other by far.

Apparently you believe that you know more than all of them combined. You know more than all of the shooters winning matches today. You know more than all of the machinists and gun builders who will go to any length and pay any price for the best possible design and quality. You don't.
__________________
Marc Soulie
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-21-2013, 10:08 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: 300 WSM-Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, or Badger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcS View Post
Apparently you believe that you know more than all of them combined. You know more than all of the shooters winning matches today. You know more than all of the machinists and gun builders who will go to any length and pay any price for the best possible design and quality. You don't.
No, I don't know more. Only what's right.

None of their stuff shoots any more accurate than those Winchester actions of days gone by.

When one of them builds something that'll shoot a half dozen or more consecutive 10-shot groups at 600 yards all under 1.5 inches (all under 1/4 MOA), then I'll pay attention to them. I'm not aware of anyone doing that with modern stuff. I'd be honored to talk with one who has.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC