Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


Reply

300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #22  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:44 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,822
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

if you really read my post a and thought about it, the .300 WBY was not my recommendation! But as more than one 1000 yard target shooter will tell you right up front it's probably one of the very best factory based cartridge to start out shooting at 1000 yards. I personally would have started with a 6.5 or 7mm something, but the OP wanted a 30 caliber round. The bad part about the .300 is that we can't get 3100 powder anymore. I often use the AA manual because they are not afraid to list the pressures involved. The loads I listed came out of the Hornaday manual because it was handy, and lets face it most guys will start with a loading manual. In a 300 mag, I'd start with AA3100, and probably stop there as well (I still have two bottles of it).

I realized full well you were recommending the WSM, yet that was not one of the options the OP asked about.

I simply picked out one load, and could have listed four different loads. Whether or not is was the best is a moote point here, as I was looking at what you got for the amount of powder you dumped. There's a lot more to adding 8oz. to the barrel, and you already know this. It changes the over all balance of the rifle shooting off hand, and a few other things as well.

This is long range hunting dot come. Rifles will be shot off bipod front and bag supported rear, rifle balance means very little for this type of shooting. I am pretty sure the OP was not wanting an "off hand" long range rifle. Again, this is LONGRANGEHUNTING.com, not your general hunting board. When we make recommendations for posters, we need to listen to what they want and recommend something for LONG RANGE HUNTING, not offhand hunting.

These days I only shoot one round the large double radius chamber. Just don't have the time to mess with some of the others. But what I've learned is that I never see a doughnut. Brass flow is very, very low. Gas flow is best with the larger radi. And less face it the strongest thing in nature is a circle or in this case an arc (Physics 101). I'll take that shoulder anyday of the week, as it works well.
Ackley and Jarrett did their rounds because it's easier to form a sharp shoulder, but you get to deal with their own set of issues as well. With the .300 Ackley you get the pronounced doughnut rather quickly, and the Jarrett will produce it a little later in the game. But to take this a step further, and you look at 1000 yard 30 caliber shooters. They either use the Weatherby, or the Ackley design. Both work well. Yet you don't see anybody shooting the 30-378 or the Ultra mag!


This simply is not true. The double radiused shoulder offers the least resistance to brass flow. If you load the Wby cases to max pressures, you WILL See more case stretching then with a conventional sharp shoulder angle. That is a fact. No donut, possibly true but that's because its flowing around a corner, not a sharp angle is all but the brass is still flowing easily around that double radiused shoulder. It is also not true about the reason Ackely and Jarrett went with a sharp shoulder angle because of ease of forming. It was for accurate and consistant shoulder location and contact with the chamber for better accuracy results.

Again, THIS IS LONG RANGE HUNTING. Not long range target shooting. Your recommendations need to be as such. Yes target shooters prefer smaller chamberings but I would have to see the spec list of the top shooters in the world to believe that they are shooting the Wby or Ackley. I do not believe that to be true. Would have to see the top shooters spec lists to believe this. Most of the long range records being set are with smaller caliber rounds these days from what I read.

I said the .300 WBY was over bore as well, but also said the other two were somewhat ridiculous. But also said that you needed to be looking at 220 grain and heavier bullets to make sense out of these cases (at one time the Navy was playing around with 300 grain solid tungsten bullets in the .300 Win mag and Weatherby case). Yet a lot of folks are using the .300 WSM case with great results. Seems to be easier to develop loads for, and the powder selection is greater. Now taking notes from Parker Ackley's book, he does point the issues of over bore, verses not being over bore. They are known to be a lot more forgiving in load development. Have a greater barrel life, and tend to group tighter. (an example here is the 6BR and 30BR as both are well known over achievers)

Again, not true. The 300 Wby is not over bore by modern standards. Maybe 30 years ago you had an argument but not today. The term overbore came from back in the day when guys were trying to load a 300 Wby using IMR 4350. That is not the case today. The term is outdated and does not apply to much of anything today with our modern loading powders. Again, your comments about PO Ackleys notes simply point out that your arguments are 30-40 years old and out dated. With the powders he used, YES, with the powders we have today, NO WAY.

Again, WE ARE NOT ON 1000 yard BR.com. We are talking about using a rifle that can put the velocity and energy on target at long range to get the job done, not simply the best round for best accuracy on paper at long range. True there are many rounds that may be slightly more accurate then the 300 RUM but in real world big game HUNTING situations at long range, firing rifles from FIELD postions, you will NEVER realize that slight advantage. What you will realize is a heavier bullet, with higher BC value bucking the wind better to the target that is NOT on a shooting range with wind flags and zero angle and when the bullet gets there you will have the advantage of higher retained velocity for better bullet expansion and also higher retained energy loads for better vital tissue distruction.

Again, this is LONG RANGE HUNTING. Your reponses should be directed in that way, not for target use or purposes.

First of all I have not bought a gun magazine in about 15 years, and never did trust 90% of the writers (and still would not). I can only think of one magazine that ever used the neck shoulder design issue, and that was Precision Shooting. I can vouch for just about everything those guys published, and many others will as well.

I have read articles on the subject of neck length/shoulder angle and barrel life in Shooting Times, Varmint Hunter, Precision Reloading just to name a few. I will also say I have proven the fact that how a rifle is shot and cleaned is far more important then what its chambered in for barrel life. My lightweight 7mm Allen Magnum which is based on an improved 338 Lapua case design which you say would be ridiculously overbored, has well over 1000 rounds down the bore and still shoots into sub 3/4 moa groups and has taken close to 30 head of big game from 500 to 930 yards with all but two being one shot kills. To your way of thinking, this rifle barrel should have been toast 5 years ago but its simply WRONG. Heat a barrel up and keep shooting and the barrel wear increases expodentially, keep it cool and be religious in that and you will be amazed how long a worthless chambering like this can last for barrel life. Again, we are not talking about 10 shot groups on paper which it seems you are. I am talking about limiting strings to no more then three shots and once that is one, GETTING off paper and doing practical field shooting practice where one shot is all that is taken at any specific range to sharpen your drop chart and your first shot hit skills. I am not a comp shooter. I do not design comp guns, I design big game rifles that flatten big game at very long ranges, not punch holes in paper at very long ranges.

Finally, the OP asked about the 300 Win Mag, 300 RUM or 30-378 Wby, you recommend the 300 WSM and 308 Norma.... Two fine rounds but neither were asked about and the latter is for the most part a dinosaur. How one could recommend it over the 300 Win Mag these days is a mystery to me.

As far as your comments about the 300 WSM and if the owner did not like it you could just rebarrel it to something that suited the shooter better. Like what, another WSM which would be your only opinion........

Get the Rem 700 in a 300 RUM, that way if you did not like it, you would actually have options to rebarrel it to anything with a magnum rim diameter down the road, that would included belted magnum or non belted, 100 times more flexible for rebuilding down the road.

I do not mean to attack you but all of your advice seems to come from a target shooters background which is fine but it has very little to do with long range BIG GAME HUNTING. True there is cross over to each but when your making claims of the BEST for this and BEST for that, your simply not being factual. Everything you have claimed as being the BEST, I could bring up a dozen points why in fact it is not the best for long range HUNTING.
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-08-2013, 01:11 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: California Central Coast
Posts: 1,182
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerhntr71 View Post
I am kicking around the idea of a long range rifle in a Browning X-Bolt Long Range Hunter carbon fiber in 300 Win or Remington Sendero II in 300 Rum or a 30-378 Weatherby in a Mark V Carbon fiber. Any thoughts. Thanks.
This is a pretty sweet selection to chose from.

I would question anyone who gives advice with such a limited set of base parameters.

but in absence additional input

My thoughts, get the one that turns you on the most.

I have not been behind a 30-378 but have on the others. 300WM was a tactical, it's OK. I have a RUM target and shoot a buddy's Christensen Arms carbon fiber 300RUM. Both have a serious accuracy edge AFAIC.

As for suggestions of 300WSM. It is a fine caliber. One of my favorites. The only big game I have taken is with this caliber at 300 yards with factory copper.

If you are not going to reload, you could rank them in order of available factory loads. From Midway 300WM (83), 300WSM (38), 300RUM (34) and 30-378 (16)

If you are going to load your own. Well, back to square 1.

If you are after a big boom, well there is no question, the 30-378 is the biggest boom in the bunch.

If the goal is to hunt big things past 600 yards, if it were me, it would be the 300RUM. Inside 600 any including the WSM.

And lastly, I'm not as fond of belted magnums for accuracy but many are.
__________________
Fred Seaman
“Ask, Listen, Learn, Grow”
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: California Central Coast
Posts: 1,182
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

please post about your final choice and pics of the bang stick.
__________________
Fred Seaman
“Ask, Listen, Learn, Grow”
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-08-2013, 07:56 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,626
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
if you really read my post a and thought about it, the .300 WBY was not my recommendation! But as more than one 1000 yard target shooter will tell you right up front it's probably one of the very best factory based cartridge to start out shooting at 1000 yards. I personally would have started with a 6.5 or 7mm something, but the OP wanted a 30 caliber round. The bad part about the .300 is that we can't get 3100 powder anymore. I often use the AA manual because they are not afraid to list the pressures involved. The loads I listed came out of the Hornaday manual because it was handy, and lets face it most guys will start with a loading manual. In a 300 mag, I'd start with AA3100, and probably stop there as well (I still have two bottles of it).

I realized full well you were recommending the WSM, yet that was not one of the options the OP asked about.

I simply picked out one load, and could have listed four different loads. Whether or not is was the best is a moote point here, as I was looking at what you got for the amount of powder you dumped. There's a lot more to adding 8oz. to the barrel, and you already know this. It changes the over all balance of the rifle shooting off hand, and a few other things as well.

This is long range hunting dot come. Rifles will be shot off bipod front and bag supported rear, rifle balance means very little for this type of shooting. I am pretty sure the OP was not wanting an "off hand" long range rifle. Again, this is LONGRANGEHUNTING.com, not your general hunting board. When we make recommendations for posters, we need to listen to what they want and recommend something for LONG RANGE HUNTING, not offhand hunting.

These days I only shoot one round the large double radius chamber. Just don't have the time to mess with some of the others. But what I've learned is that I never see a doughnut. Brass flow is very, very low. Gas flow is best with the larger radi. And less face it the strongest thing in nature is a circle or in this case an arc (Physics 101). I'll take that shoulder anyday of the week, as it works well.
Ackley and Jarrett did their rounds because it's easier to form a sharp shoulder, but you get to deal with their own set of issues as well. With the .300 Ackley you get the pronounced doughnut rather quickly, and the Jarrett will produce it a little later in the game. But to take this a step further, and you look at 1000 yard 30 caliber shooters. They either use the Weatherby, or the Ackley design. Both work well. Yet you don't see anybody shooting the 30-378 or the Ultra mag!

This simply is not true. The double radiused shoulder offers the least resistance to brass flow. If you load the Wby cases to max pressures, you WILL See more case stretching then with a conventional sharp shoulder angle. That is a fact. No donut, possibly true but that's because its flowing around a corner, not a sharp angle is all but the brass is still flowing easily around that double radiused shoulder. It is also not true about the reason Ackely and Jarrett went with a sharp shoulder angle because of ease of forming. It was for accurate and consistant shoulder location and contact with the chamber for better accuracy results.

Again, THIS IS LONG RANGE HUNTING. Not long range target shooting. Your recommendations need to be as such. Yes target shooters prefer smaller chamberings but I would have to see the spec list of the top shooters in the world to believe that they are shooting the Wby or Ackley. I do not believe that to be true. Would have to see the top shooters spec lists to believe this. Most of the long range records being set are with smaller caliber rounds these days from what I read.

I said the .300 WBY was over bore as well, but also said the other two were somewhat ridiculous. But also said that you needed to be looking at 220 grain and heavier bullets to make sense out of these cases (at one time the Navy was playing around with 300 grain solid tungsten bullets in the .300 Win mag and Weatherby case). Yet a lot of folks are using the .300 WSM case with great results. Seems to be easier to develop loads for, and the powder selection is greater. Now taking notes from Parker Ackley's book, he does point the issues of over bore, verses not being over bore. They are known to be a lot more forgiving in load development. Have a greater barrel life, and tend to group tighter. (an example here is the 6BR and 30BR as both are well known over achievers)

Again, not true. The 300 Wby is not over bore by modern standards. Maybe 30 years ago you had an argument but not today. The term overbore came from back in the day when guys were trying to load a 300 Wby using IMR 4350. That is not the case today. The term is outdated and does not apply to much of anything today with our modern loading powders. Again, your comments about PO Ackleys notes simply point out that your arguments are 30-40 years old and out dated. With the powders he used, YES, with the powders we have today, NO WAY.

Again, WE ARE NOT ON 1000 yard BR.com. We are talking about using a rifle that can put the velocity and energy on target at long range to get the job done, not simply the best round for best accuracy on paper at long range. True there are many rounds that may be slightly more accurate then the 300 RUM but in real world big game HUNTING situations at long range, firing rifles from FIELD postions, you will NEVER realize that slight advantage. What you will realize is a heavier bullet, with higher BC value bucking the wind better to the target that is NOT on a shooting range with wind flags and zero angle and when the bullet gets there you will have the advantage of higher retained velocity for better bullet expansion and also higher retained energy loads for better vital tissue distruction.

Again, this is LONG RANGE HUNTING. Your reponses should be directed in that way, not for target use or purposes.

First of all I have not bought a gun magazine in about 15 years, and never did trust 90% of the writers (and still would not). I can only think of one magazine that ever used the neck shoulder design issue, and that was Precision Shooting. I can vouch for just about everything those guys published, and many others will as well.

I have read articles on the subject of neck length/shoulder angle and barrel life in Shooting Times, Varmint Hunter, Precision Reloading just to name a few. I will also say I have proven the fact that how a rifle is shot and cleaned is far more important then what its chambered in for barrel life. My lightweight 7mm Allen Magnum which is based on an improved 338 Lapua case design which you say would be ridiculously overbored, has well over 1000 rounds down the bore and still shoots into sub 3/4 moa groups and has taken close to 30 head of big game from 500 to 930 yards with all but two being one shot kills. To your way of thinking, this rifle barrel should have been toast 5 years ago but its simply WRONG. Heat a barrel up and keep shooting and the barrel wear increases expodentially, keep it cool and be religious in that and you will be amazed how long a worthless chambering like this can last for barrel life. Again, we are not talking about 10 shot groups on paper which it seems you are. I am talking about limiting strings to no more then three shots and once that is one, GETTING off paper and doing practical field shooting practice where one shot is all that is taken at any specific range to sharpen your drop chart and your first shot hit skills. I am not a comp shooter. I do not design comp guns, I design big game rifles that flatten big game at very long ranges, not punch holes in paper at very long ranges.

Finally, the OP asked about the 300 Win Mag, 300 RUM or 30-378 Wby, you recommend the 300 WSM and 308 Norma.... Two fine rounds but neither were asked about and the latter is for the most part a dinosaur. How one could recommend it over the 300 Win Mag these days is a mystery to me.

As far as your comments about the 300 WSM and if the owner did not like it you could just rebarrel it to something that suited the shooter better. Like what, another WSM which would be your only opinion........

Get the Rem 700 in a 300 RUM, that way if you did not like it, you would actually have options to rebarrel it to anything with a magnum rim diameter down the road, that would included belted magnum or non belted, 100 times more flexible for rebuilding down the road.

I do not mean to attack you but all of your advice seems to come from a target shooters background which is fine but it has very little to do with long range BIG GAME HUNTING. True there is cross over to each but when your making claims of the BEST for this and BEST for that, your simply not being factual. Everything you have claimed as being the BEST, I could bring up a dozen points why in fact it is not the best for long range HUNTING.
lets simply put this to bed as I'm 110% one way and your 110% the otherway, and I have no problem with that. We just choose to disagree.
gary
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-09-2013, 05:58 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 815
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

problem with that is most 300wsms are on short actions and theres not many options for more power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
Once again, just buy a .300WSM and be done with it. If your sick of it, then rechamber the gun to something likable to the shooter. The WSM will shoot tighter groups and last longer. But I also love the .308 Norma just as well.
gary
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-09-2013, 08:08 AM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,822
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
lets simply put this to bed as I'm 110% one way and your 110% the otherway, and I have no problem with that. We just choose to disagree.
gary
Agree to disagree, no hard feelings!

Please realize that I have nothing against any of the rounds your recommending. I like them all, use them all, build rifles in all of them for customers and they all easily meet my accuracy standards and are great long range big game chamberings.

My recommendations are simply more narrowly focused toward the OPs three listed chamberings and that's all. If I were to recommend which I think would be the best 30 cal. to choose from, it would have to be my 300 Allen Xpress!!! May be a BIT biased.

No hard feelings.
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-09-2013, 08:11 AM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,822
Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by lloydsmale View Post
problem with that is most 300wsms are on short actions and theres not many options for more power.
That is very true and one of my points. You can step up to the 338 WSM but you may run into OAL issues with most of the rifles chambered in WSMs. The Rem 700 can be fitted with an extended mag box and work well but other then that, your only options are to go down in caliber which can often improve ballistic performance but may not do much to improve ballistic or terminal performance.

Rem 700 Long action offers nearly endless options if the owner decides they want to modify it down the road.
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC