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300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

 
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  #15  
Old 09-07-2013, 01:08 PM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

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Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
If I was into the shooting game strictly for efficiency I would be shooting a 223 and 308 only. Ya gotta pay to play the game.
I would be shooting an arrow, the most powder efficient projectile on earth. It's opening day archery season....I had to throw that out there.
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2013, 04:45 PM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Out of the box it would be an Accumark in 300WBY or the Sendero in 300RUM. If you are looking for lightweight the Weatherby LW is a good choice. Not fun to shoot but a great tool. If buying used be sure to bore scope them. I have inspected more than a few 300RUM's with severe throat erosion in as few as 40 rounds. Don't get them hot and they last a long time. The burned up ones the guys lost their cool and rapid fired 20+ rounds trying to get the big kicker to group.

A brake is about a must on any of these. If going custom I really like the 300RUM.
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2013, 09:17 PM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

+1 the the Sendero 300 rum. I have all of the above and I would go with the rum over the 30-378 any day. The 300 win mag is a old dependable but isn't set up quite as well as the 300 rum.. What can I say I have a favorite . I've got my rum on a healthy diet of 230gr Berger targets and it love them! I'd like to work with the 230s in my custom 30-378 but.. It's got a 1:11" twist and it likes the 185gr Bergers better. It's kind of a silly caliber to have if you also own a 300 rum.

Anyways 100% 300 rum!! It is my all time favorite fallowed by the 375 rum.
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2013, 09:53 AM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
not a flame, as I really don't car that much.

Virtually all the big mags are overbore from the start. the Ultra mag and the 30-378 are borderline ridiculous. Lots of powder for maybe 170fps at best. The Op never said what kind of bullets he was thinking about using, and I just grabbed two manuals for a quick scan.

In the Hornaday manual using 190 grain bullets (I didn't have any load data on the Sierra 220 and 240 grain bullets to go by), I was kinda stunned at what I saw in there:

* .300 Rem short action ultra mag will do 2900 fps with 62 grains of 4350 in
a 24" barrel!!

* .308 Norma mag will do 3000fps using 73 grains of RL22 in a 24" barrel

* .300WSM will do 2900fps with 74 grains of Magpro and a 24" barrel

* .300 Win mag will do 2900fps using 68.6 grains of 4831 and a 25" barrel

* .300 WBY mag will do 3100 fps using 75.7 grains of 4831 in a 26" barrel

* .300 Ultra mag will do 3200 fps using 92.3 grains of H1000 and a 26" barrel

* 30/.378 will do 3200 using 114 grains of 8700 an a 28" barrel

now what we see here is that when the barrel lengths are somewhat close to being equal the only thing that's happening is making Hogdons and AA richer! Maybe if you had a 34" barrel you might pick up 250 to 300fps, but you'll also need a number one gun bearer to carry that thing! The .308 Norma mag just steps out and says "I can!" Of all these rounds it's common knowledge that the Norma mag thru the .300 WBY are by far the most accurate in very long distance shooting. The short action Remington looks to be a fairly good case design, and also very efficient. Same could be said of the .300WSM. The .300 WBY, .300 Ackley mag, or the Jarrett are the best in case design, but starting to show some serious overbore unless you move up to the 220 thru 250 grain bullets and a 28" barrel. All three are known to be very accurate in the right chambered barrel. Plus they have by far the best shoulder neck design (throw the WSM in that mix as well). The ultra mag beside burning a bunch more powder has the issue of the T.P. point out on the lip of the case. Meaning a short throat life. Still if your somebody like Dan Lilja (a fine gentleman I might add) this means little. For me it would.

The .300 Win mag would be the cheapest of the bunch to get into as cases are cheaper. Still you could make Norma cases out of Win mag brass! The Ackley and Jarrett can easily be formed from either necking up 7mm STW brass, or necking down 8mm mag brass. Easy enough to do. The .300 WBY brass is a go from the start. But once again I'd start with a .300WSM, or do a low free bore chamber in the WBY (all will have free bore in a factory barrel!)

What we see is very diminishing returns for as much as 33% more powder in the big cased mags.
gary
The funny thing about reloading manuals is that they rarely list the best powders for a given chambering, WHY is that, not sure but the loads you list are FAR from the best for each chambering. I will admit that what you list for the 300 Wby is about as good as you can get. 3100 fps with a 190 gr bullet in the Wby is a pretty good load. I would not use H4831, there are much better powders to use to get this level of velocity but that is about max.

The 300 RUM in a 26" barrel length with a good load of Retumbo will easily break 3200 fps with a 210 gr Berger or SMK, whereas the Wby will get you around 3K or a bit over but not much.

You have made clear my point on the 30-378 as it needs a load of powder to get the velocity it does but again, your choosing the worst powders to make your point more extreme. There are many loads in the 300 Wby using 8700 that would easily add 10 grains to the powder charged use to get the same velocity you list. Your using loads to prove your point.

As far as your gun barer comment, adding 4" to barrel length would add around 8 oz of weight to the rifle. THAT IS A LOAD that would break most healthy mature male hunters I am sure.

The 300 Wby has a terrible shoulder design for accurate and consistant shoulder control, that is why they invented the Ackely and the Jarrett, to correct the weakness of the double radius shoulder design.

You say anything over the Wby is severely overbore, hardly. Overbore depends on the bullet weight, barrel length, bore diameter and more specifically, POWDER used in the combo. We have new powders today that make these larger capacities very practical. If we were talking back in the 1970 or even 80s, I would agree, your your opinion these days is a bit outdated with the new powders we have to use. In fact the 300 RUM is quite efficient if loaded correctly. IF your hung up on getting the very most FPS with the very least grains of powder, yes, go with the WSM. If you want to drive a heavy bullet to high velocity for the best down range ballistic and terminal performance, there is no question which is better.

Your opinion on short barrel life because of shoulder and neck design is simply something that some gun rag writer writes about. I have tested this to the extreme in my wildcat chamberings and it makes VERY LITTLE Difference. The determining factors that effect barrel life in these large capacity chamberings is simply keeping the barrel clean and keeping it cool. The barrel life of any rifle is much more dependant on how the rifle is shot and cared for, FAR more then what the rifle is chambered in. I had a 300 RUM Rem 700, one of the first to come to Montana. Used it for a load of years, put over 1000 rounds down the barrel. Restocked it and gave it to my brother in law and he has put 500 more through it and its still shooting the 200 gr Accubonds at 3240 fps into sub 3/4 moa groups, about what it did when it was new for accuracy.

Neck length and barrel life have very little in common. Keeping your barrel cool and clean is the key, nothing more, nothing less. Again, back in the day when all there was were chrome moly steel barrel, your argument may have had some merit but with todays fine stainless steel barrels, not so much.

Again, I go back to my original argument, the 300 RUM is a better case design, it will get you a solid 200 fps more velocity then the 300 Wby when loaded to same chamber pressures or better yet it will drive a 20 grain heavier bullet with much higher BC value to the same velocity as the Wby. Brass will be available for ever for the 300 RUM as its very well estabilished and for good reason.

Your argument is more at the muzzle then anything, my point of view is being able to drive a heavy, longer, higher BC bullet to higher velocity so that the bullet does more work down range with less stress on the case. True you can red line the Wby to get the velocity you list or you can use very comfortable pressures in a much better case design and still get better barrel life.

If you take care of both, the 300 RUM will get you just as long of a barrel life as the 300 Wby, especially in a factory rifle, WHY, simply because the Wby will have a very long freebore which will erode much more quickly. When it does, velocity will drop off. The 300 RUM will come with a shorter throat that will be better for accuracy.

You speak of a short throated 300 Wby, if you do that, you drop 100 fps easily off the listed velocities for that chambering....... Not only that but shooting factory ammo in a short throated rifle would be dangerous because pressures would spike very high.

All issues that are NON ISSUES with the RUM.

Back in the 70s and 80s the 300 Wby was near the top of the performance ladder, today its average at best, not opinion, that is simply fact. A great round but there is so much more to be had with no real disadvantages.
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  #19  
Old 09-08-2013, 10:01 AM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Gary,

You can't go by the manuals to know the true capabilities of a cartridge. I have loaded for the 300 WSM and the 300 RUM. The WSM (24 3/8ths barrel) could shoot a 180 gr bullet to 3000 fps with 67 gr of H4350. The RUM (26" barrel) could shoot the same bullet to 3400 fps with 98 gr of Retumbo.

Now, with RL17 I could boost the WSM velocity to 3200 fps bringing it much closer to the RUM.

With the development of RL33, the RUM will gain some efficiency. It should easily be able to push a 230 Hybrid to over 3100 fps. The 300 WM might be able to push a 215 gr bullet to 3000 fps in a 26" barrel with 75% of the powder. But the RUM is definitely going to reach farther and hit harder.

Yes, there is always going to be a loss of efficiency when stepping up in the same cal. The overall cost difference in shooting a 300 WM and a 300 RUM will be about $1.25 per shot vs $1.65 per shot including barrel cost.

If I was into the shooting game strictly for efficiency I would be shooting a 223 and 308 only. Ya gotta pay to play the game.
Very good points and explaining. Goes along with my comments exactly, if your looking to get he best ballistic and terminal performance, driving the heaviest, highest BC bullet your rifle can handle is where its at and with todays powders, the 300 RUM is certainly not impractical by any means.

As far as your cost per shot number, I would say its much closer then that between the two once you take out the brass cost. Brass price really is only included on the first firing, and the more shots you fire, the less its a factor on each case as you well know. Getting the numbers previously listed on the WBy brass will stress it more then the same numbers listed using RUM brass which translates into more firings per case with the RUM which lowers its cost per shot.

Again, could not agree more with your comments. One does not choose a larger 30 cal for close range shooting. If you choose a 300 WSM, or 300 Win or 300 Wby or 300 RUM or 30-378, you better be using it for larger big game or big game at longer ranges. If your purpose is longer range shooting, that being +500 yards, there is no comparision between the WSM and the RUM and even between the WBY and the RUM there is a sizable difference.
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  #20  
Old 09-08-2013, 10:04 AM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Gun View Post
Out of the box it would be an Accumark in 300WBY or the Sendero in 300RUM. If you are looking for lightweight the Weatherby LW is a good choice. Not fun to shoot but a great tool. If buying used be sure to bore scope them. I have inspected more than a few 300RUM's with severe throat erosion in as few as 40 rounds. Don't get them hot and they last a long time. The burned up ones the guys lost their cool and rapid fired 20+ rounds trying to get the big kicker to group.

A brake is about a must on any of these. If going custom I really like the 300RUM.
Exactly, people buy the 300 RUMs and 30-378 wbys and shoot them like they do their 308s or 30-06 rifles and WONDER why they loose accuracy with few rounds down the barrel, then they spout all over the web that these are barrel burners while all along, the problem is them, not the rifle or the chambering. Keep them cool, keep them clean and they will last a long time. There is a price to pay for performance of any kind, learn how to use it properly and you will be very happy and very impressed with the barrel life you get out of these big chamberings. Use it incorrectly and yes, you will WASTE a barrel quickly but that is not what HAS to happen.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

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  #21  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:07 PM
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Re: 300 Win vs 300 RUM vs 30-378 Weatherby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
The funny thing about reloading manuals is that they rarely list the best powders for a given chambering, WHY is that, not sure but the loads you list are FAR from the best for each chambering. I will admit that what you list for the 300 Wby is about as good as you can get. 3100 fps with a 190 gr bullet in the Wby is a pretty good load. I would not use H4831, there are much better powders to use to get this level of velocity but that is about max.

if you really read my post a and thought about it, the .300 WBY was not my recommendation! But as more than one 1000 yard target shooter will tell you right up front it's probably one of the very best factory based cartridge to start out shooting at 1000 yards. I personally would have started with a 6.5 or 7mm something, but the OP wanted a 30 caliber round. The bad part about the .300 is that we can't get 3100 powder anymore. I often use the AA manual because they are not afraid to list the pressures involved. The loads I listed came out of the Hornaday manual because it was handy, and lets face it most guys will start with a loading manual. In a 300 mag, I'd start with AA3100, and probably stop there as well (I still have two bottles of it).

The 300 RUM in a 26" barrel length with a good load of Retumbo will easily break 3200 fps with a 210 gr Berger or SMK, whereas the Wby will get you around 3K or a bit over but not much.

You have made clear my point on the 30-378 as it needs a load of powder to get the velocity it does but again, your choosing the worst powders to make your point more extreme. There are many loads in the 300 Wby using 8700 that would easily add 10 grains to the powder charged use to get the same velocity you list. Your using loads to prove your point.

As far as your gun barer comment, adding 4" to barrel length would add around 8 oz of weight to the rifle. THAT IS A LOAD that would break most healthy mature male hunters I am sure.

I simply picked out one load, and could have listed four different loads. Whether or not is was the best is a moote point here, as I was looking at what you got for the amount of powder you dumped. There's a lot more to adding 8oz. to the barrel, and you already know this. It changes the over all balance of the rifle shooting off hand, and a few other things as well.
The 300 Wby has a terrible shoulder design for accurate and consistant shoulder control, that is why they invented the Ackely and the Jarrett, to correct the weakness of the double radius shoulder design.

These days I only shoot one round the large double radius chamber. Just don't have the time to mess with some of the others. But what I've learned is that I never see a doughnut. Brass flow is very, very low. Gas flow is best with the larger radi. And less face it the strongest thing in nature is a circle or in this case an arc (Physics 101). I'll take that shoulder anyday of the week, as it works well.
Ackley and Jarrett did their rounds because it's easier to form a sharp shoulder, but you get to deal with their own set of issues as well. With the .300 Ackley you get the pronounced doughnut rather quickly, and the Jarrett will produce it a little later in the game. But to take this a step further, and you look at 1000 yard 30 caliber shooters. They either use the Weatherby, or the Ackley design. Both work well. Yet you don't see anybody shooting the 30-378 or the Ultra mag!

You say anything over the Wby is severely overbore, hardly. Overbore depends on the bullet weight, barrel length, bore diameter and more specifically, POWDER used in the combo. We have new powders today that make these larger capacities very practical. If we were talking back in the 1970 or even 80s, I would agree, your your opinion these days is a bit outdated with the new powders we have to use. In fact the 300 RUM is quite efficient if loaded correctly. IF your hung up on getting the very most FPS with the very least grains of powder, yes, go with the WSM. If you want to drive a heavy bullet to high velocity for the best down range ballistic and terminal performance, there is no question which is better.

I said the .300 WBY was over bore as well, but also said the other two were somewhat ridiculous. But also said that you needed to be looking at 220 grain and heavier bullets to make sense out of these cases (at one time the Navy was playing around with 300 grain solid tungsten bullets in the .300 Win mag and Weatherby case). Yet a lot of folks are using the .300 WSM case with great results. Seems to be easier to develop loads for, and the powder selection is greater. Now taking notes from Parker Ackley's book, he does point the issues of over bore, verses not being over bore. They are known to be a lot more forgiving in load development. Have a greater barrel life, and tend to group tighter. (an example here is the 6BR and 30BR as both are well known over achievers)

Your opinion on short barrel life because of shoulder and neck design is simply something that some gun rag writer writes about. I have tested this to the extreme in my wildcat chamberings and it makes VERY LITTLE Difference. The determining factors that effect barrel life in these large capacity chamberings is simply keeping the barrel clean and keeping it cool. The barrel life of any rifle is much more dependant on how the rifle is shot and cared for, FAR more then what the rifle is chambered in. I had a 300 RUM Rem 700, one of the first to come to Montana. Used it for a load of years, put over 1000 rounds down the barrel. Restocked it and gave it to my brother in law and he has put 500 more through it and its still shooting the 200 gr Accubonds at 3240 fps into sub 3/4 moa groups, about what it did when it was new for accuracy.

First of all I have not bought a gun magazine in about 15 years, and never did trust 90% of the writers (and still would not). I can only think of one magazine that ever used the neck shoulder design issue, and that was Precision Shooting. I can vouch for just about everything those guys published, and many others will as well.

Neck length and barrel life have very little in common. Keeping your barrel cool and clean is the key, nothing more, nothing less. Again, back in the day when all there was were chrome moly steel barrel, your argument may have had some merit but with todays fine stainless steel barrels, not so much.

Again, I go back to my original argument, the 300 RUM is a better case design, it will get you a solid 200 fps more velocity then the 300 Wby when loaded to same chamber pressures or better yet it will drive a 20 grain heavier bullet with much higher BC value to the same velocity as the Wby. Brass will be available for ever for the 300 RUM as its very well estabilished and for good reason.

Your argument is more at the muzzle then anything, my point of view is being able to drive a heavy, longer, higher BC bullet to higher velocity so that the bullet does more work down range with less stress on the case. True you can red line the Wby to get the velocity you list or you can use very comfortable pressures in a much better case design and still get better barrel life.

If you take care of both, the 300 RUM will get you just as long of a barrel life as the 300 Wby, especially in a factory rifle, WHY, simply because the Wby will have a very long freebore which will erode much more quickly. When it does, velocity will drop off. The 300 RUM will come with a shorter throat that will be better for accuracy.

You speak of a short throated 300 Wby, if you do that, you drop 100 fps easily off the listed velocities for that chambering....... Not only that but shooting factory ammo in a short throated rifle would be dangerous because pressures would spike very high.

All issues that are NON ISSUES with the RUM.

Back in the 70s and 80s the 300 Wby was near the top of the performance ladder, today its average at best, not opinion, that is simply fact. A great round but there is so much more to be had with no real disadvantages.
Once again, just buy a .300WSM and be done with it. If your sick of it, then rechamber the gun to something likable to the shooter. The WSM will shoot tighter groups and last longer. But I also love the .308 Norma just as well.
gary
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