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.300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

 
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  #8  
Old 07-09-2009, 02:16 PM
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Kemp View Post
I remember some of his hot loads were said to only be safe in custom action. FYI

Yes, his hunting buddy runs a Varminter on a Rem700 action. The 700 action only runs 3800fps loads, while the Bat actions can run the 4000fps loads. A MAP load of N550 in 300WSM with the 125gr Nosler runs 3600fps in QL. However, the data suggests QL is under by 200-250fps compared to real measured data. Thus, a MAP loading should be running 3800-3850fps. The hot loads run 68k and I wouldn't run them on a Rem700 action. They have tested them, but the brass doesn't last but a couple of firings when shot on a 700 action. On Bat actions they are getting many reloads and no pressure signs.
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  #9  
Old 07-09-2009, 03:25 PM
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

Have to comment on this. Not looking to start a fight but I was involved in the last heated debate on the 300 Varminter and I got so tired of third hand "opinion" that I contacted Richard directly with some questions to get the actual facts.

His actual comments, if you want decent case life, you have to drop velocity to 3800 fps no matter what receiver you are using.

When loaded to the +4000 fps level, primer pockets would loosen dramatically on first firing and be to loose to use after 2 firings but he was perfectly fine with that as he only wanted the performance and cared little about replacing brass after two firings.

He was even willing to send me some brass from his rifle, one that was a once fired case and one that had been fired twice. He was dead on with his comments. Once fired primer pockets were noticably loose, case with two firings held a primer but I would not have shot that case and neither would be.

Simply put, I could care less what a computer predicts, loading a 125 gr BT out of the 300 WSM at +4000 fps will produce chamber pressures that will noticably loosen a primer pocket on the first firing and make the case unusible after only two firings....... This is right from the mans own lips and I give him credit for being honest with what he is seeing.

It did not matter at all what receiver the brass was fired in, 3800 fps was the limit if you wanted more then two firings, did not matter if it was a Rem 700 or a BAT, go over 3800 fps and you loose your primer pockets, go to 4000 fps, even in the BAT, two firings and thats it.

Again, not making this up. I was sick of listening to a third party opinion so I contacted him directly to get the facts, and he gave them to me and I reported them back then.

I have no idea how many PSI he is pushing in his +4000 fps loads but its enough to make a case worthless after only two firings.......
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Kirby Allen(50)

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  #10  
Old 07-09-2009, 04:30 PM
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

Quote:
His actual comments, if you want decent case life, you have to drop velocity to 3800 fps no matter what receiver you are using.
Absolutely. This is exactly what Richard told me. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought that he was getting more firings at high pressure with Bat vs. the Remington.


Quote:
Simply put, I could care less what a computer predicts, loading a 125 gr BT out of the 300 WSM at +4000 fps will produce chamber pressures that will noticably loosen a primer pocket on the first firing and make the case unusible after only two firings....... This is right from the mans own lips and I give him credit for being honest with what he is seeing.

I have no idea how many PSI he is pushing in his +4000 fps loads but its enough to make a case worthless after only two firings.......
As I pointed out in my post, models are good tools, but are far from perfect. I was interested in what the computer said, which is why I ran so many QL models (many more than I posted). The computer was showing a little over 68k PSI to reach 4k fps, which should wreck brass pretty quick. 3800fps give or take is right at MAP and you should get more firings. I noted that some people, who claim to own 300 Varminters, also claim to not have signs of pressure at 4k fps. I don't have one yet, so I don't know if this is true or not. Loose primer pockets != no signs of pressure.

In all of my discussions with Richard, he never said you could get more than a couple (technically means 2) firings at 4k fps before brass was toast. I think the only thing we disagreed on was the number of firings with the different actions. Again, perhaps I misunderstood Richard, but I thought that regardless of whether he was firing 3800fps MAP loads or 4000fps hot loads, that Bat actions were getting more firings than the Remington.

Does it really matter if a R700 action only gets one firing at 4k fps, while Bat gets two...vice versa? Nope. Either way those loads are hot and the brass won't last more than a couple of firings. Would I prefer a Bat if I was to run 4k fps loads, sure. Were I a smith, would I recommend a Bat action over a R700 if my customer wanted to run 4k fps load, you bet. Do I have any evidence that this would be the technically correct thing to do? Nope. Personal preference based on my understanding of the actions, absolutely.

The real reason for posting was to show how QL can be off by enough to cause real arguements about the ability to push round X at Y fps.

P.S. Kirby, I respect your work quite a bit and have been thinking about ordering a .338 Allen Mag in the couple of years.

Last edited by gunderwood; 07-09-2009 at 04:47 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-09-2009, 06:19 PM
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

I really have no dog in this fight. Richard builds fine rifles, that is without question, He is a man of honesty and is direct and hides nothing and is willing to put it out there and let others choose for themselves.

That said, I have had several customers contact me since the 300 "varminter" started its buzz and I flat refuse to recommend my customers load the 300 WSM up to anywhere near 4000 fps for one simple reason.

You have to listen to your brass and your gun. One may not warn of pressure signs(rifle) but the other always will(brass). If a primer pocket is loosening to the point of being unusible after two firings, in my professional opinion, you are running on the ragged edge of safety.

If a case with a weak or flawed case head of weak primer cup for that matter slips into the ammo box, or something as freak as a spider laying an egg nest inside a case, Boom, if you think that is dramatic, believe me, it can happen and has to me and it was not a fun experience. Luckily, it was a small capacity chambering and no serious damage was done to rifle or me except for a face full of hot gas and a few minor cuts and bruises. Had it been a case of this capacity it would have likely caused some serious damage to the rifle and myself.

Again, if you think these freak things can not happen...... My brass was new, packed in a folded closed box which was inside another closed box.... After this experience I went through each case and out of 250, there were 8 of then that had spider egg sacs inside the cases. For those that think a spider egg sac will burn up instantly and not increase pressure, simply put, that is not correct.

Anyway, my point is, why push things so hard. 3800 fps is top end 220 swift velocity and with a 125 gr bullet, really what will a 4000 fps load do that a 3800 fps load can not do but do safely? I would rather error on the side of a larger safety margin personally.

This is really my only point.
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Kirby Allen(50)

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  #12  
Old 07-13-2009, 08:03 PM
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

Gunderwood

Boy, did you hit the nail on the head!

QL data is collected and based off "factory rifles, with factory loads in factory chamberings and barrels". After that you have to tweak the QL program parameters to match your MV and load data to make it work. It is not "The Almighty Gospel" as some would believe.

My QL version of the of the original data was about 4000 fps under the original QL data posted. I called the QL engineer and spent about two hours with him to find out if I made a mistake and to figure out why that could be. (No consideration for barrel twist for a 17 twist vs a 10 twist, throat adjustments, friction coefficiant adjustments, program tweaks set as normal parameters etc, etc are just some of the possible reasons). The "flame Franklin debate" was in full swing by that time and was a total waste of time to try and explain to people that the QL data posted was worse than useless. Lets leave it as misleading.

QL is a great tool to get in the ball park and to pick a moderate starting point, but unless you have all the parameters and you actually tweak it to your rifle's specs, it is can be very misleading.

That shows why we routinely see loads posted here that are completely safe in one gun and off the pressure chart in another. That is also why it is not safe to routinely start at the top ends off any posted loads.

Glad to see someone clear up the pressure issue which was the original issue, not case life, as "hot wildcats" with short case life are routine on this site. Most just plan for it and throw away at 3-4 firings and nothing wrong that if that is what you want to do.


BH

Last edited by BountyHunter; 07-13-2009 at 08:07 PM.
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  #13  
Old 07-13-2009, 10:10 PM
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

I may have missed something but I was under the impression that the debate about the hot loaded 300 WSM renamed the 300 Varminter was always based on excessive pressure and nothing else?

Based on the personal cases that Mr. Franklin sent me to check out, and from his own words, he is running VERY high pressure. Many have touted that the Norma 300 WSM case can take excessive pressure with flying colors. If that is in fact the case and the primer pockets are still blown out by the second firing, I hate to think what the actual chamber pressure is in these loads.

As far as hot loaded, high pressure, short case life wildcats being the norm on this site, I do not find any basis for that comment. I can say that in all the members I have talked with as well as non members, there have been a total of three guys that were fine with their cases letting loose after only 2 firings. Those would be Mr. Casull with his 338-416 Rigby Imp., Mr. Ferguson with his hot loaded 257 STW and Mr. Franklin with his hot loaded 300 WSM.

Other then that, I have never talked to anyone that is happy with their cases being blown after two firings. From most I talk with if they are not getting 4 firings per case, they are not overly happy, espeically with brass prices more then doubling.

While many say that brass cost is meaningless, well, thats simply not true with most of us.

Again, Richard offered an unbiased opinion of what he is doing, even sent me brass to check it out myself and it was exactly as he discribed, brass is pretty much useless after two firings. Now, using a BAT receiver, with a chamber set at zero headspace, tight match chamber specs, proper throat design, very slow twist barrel, light bullet and still primer pockets are consistantly blown after two firings, how can that not be read as excessive pressure for the case design?

Just asking the question.

You can manipulate computers all you want to spit out numbers that look better for a certain cause, in the real world, if the pressures were comfortable for the case the round was be fired out of, the primer pockets would last for at least 4 firings per case and likely well more then that if in fact the new Norma 300 WSM is as strong as some believe it is.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #14  
Old 07-14-2009, 12:25 AM
ATH ATH is offline
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Re: .300 Varminter and QuickLoad Observations

I've driven the 110gr V-Max to 3800fps in a standard 300WM, I'd have to look up the powder but it was just shy of a full case. No pressure signs but no reason to beat up my brass or my gun for a few more fps. Except for the occasional coyote and the need in some areas for a bullet that disintegrates upon hitting about anything it's kind of a ridiculous concept anyways, I wouldn't shoot it if my 243AI was built.
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