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300 Norma Mag

 
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  #15  
Old 04-22-2012, 05:04 PM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

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Originally Posted by DAVETOOLEY View Post
If you know how to manage carbon fouling and heat checking you can expect 900 good rounds out of the 300 Norma.
With no worse than 3/4 MOA accuracy at 1000 yards? I doubt that. 3/4 MOA's good accuracy at 1000 for me; that's what the long range benchresters get.

You mentioned on Sniper's Hide: 210's the other side 3150 FPs will work on a barrel so barrel life will be much shorter than a Win Mag. I would think barrel life will about 1500 rounds depending on cleaning regime. Accuracy will start to fade after 1100 rounds maybe sooner.

.308 Norma Mags and .30-.338 Win. Mags (same thing, different headstamp) got about 1200 rounds of 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards as a long range prone match rifle burning 65 or so grains of powder pushing 200 grain pills out somewhat over 2900 fps. And both were king of that hill for several years. The .300 Win. Mag playing the same game got about 1000 rounds shooting the same bullets out at about 3000 fps with about 69 grains of powder. I found one site online listing the .300 Norma Mag using almost 90 grains of powder under a 200 grain bullet. And that's why my prediction's at 700 absolute maximim with a bit of luck to hold 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards.

I knew two folks in the late 1960's trying the .300 Weatherby Mag as a long range prone match rifle. Both were only 1 MOA rifles at 1000 yards but then only for about 800 rounds. As far as I know, the .300 Norma Mag burns more powder than the .300 Weatherby Mag for a given bullet weight to produce more velocity with it.
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  #16  
Old 04-22-2012, 05:32 PM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

Yea that's me on the Hide. I've been around awhile but if you knew guys in the 60's your about a decade older than I am. You can't compare the 60's to what we are doing today. Light years ahead in the knowledge department.
Don't know what your background is but I started in short range benchrest then moved on to 1k BR in '95. Been smithing since '83. Spent the last few years developing LR sniper rifle systems and developing some of these rounds. I was the first person to have 300 Norma cases in the country.
What's your background? My guess is High Power.

900 rounds 3/4MOA I think is very realistic since I would expect it to start out shooting much better than that. I want to say I shoot charges in the low 80's. I haven't done much more tha testing here lately. I know of a few people that have run the 300 Norma or a round very similar and say they have gotten 1200 rounds out of it before it really fell off. Maybe, maybe not but I've seen 300WN mags shooting 1/2MOA 10 shot groups the other side of 2500 rounds. 30's just seem to be more forgiving and seem to just fade away instead of falling on their face.
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Last edited by DAVETOOLEY; 04-22-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-22-2012, 05:58 PM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

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Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
I predict a .300 Norma Magnum barrel that starts out shooting 1/4 MOA at 100 yards and 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards will do that for no more than 600 rounds. Maybe 700 if one's lucky. That's a way, way over bore cartridge.
Case capacity in grains H20:
308 Norma Mag - 86.5
300 Win Mag - 93.8
300 Norma Mag - 103.0
300 Rem Ultra - 112.5
30-378 Wby - 133.0

I don't consider the 300 Norma or even the 300 Rem Ultra as severely overbore. Not like a 223 WSSM or a 264 Win Mag. Even a 30-378 Wby barrel can last a lifetime of occasional big game hunting. I wouldn't choose any of those as an "only rifle". Practicing with something smaller but with a similar trajectory makes sense.

The advantage of the 300 Norma over the 300 Rem Ultra is that it has enough room (1.1" magazine length minus case length) to shoot VLD bullets versus only 0.75" in factory rifles like a Rem 700. I don't own a 300 Norma Mag but I have a 338 Norma Mag which has about the same advantage over a 338 Rem Ultra.
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2012, 07:16 PM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

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Originally Posted by DAVETOOLEY View Post
You can't compare the 60's to what we are doing today. Light years ahead in the knowledge department. . . .What's your background? . . . . I've seen 300WN mags shooting 1/2MOA 10 shot groups the other side of 2500 rounds.
I sure can compare what happened in the '60's to what folks are doing today. 30 caliber rifle accuracy's changed little, if any, over the years. All the aggregate individual long range benchrest record groups shot are about 3/4 MOA at the big end; same accuracy one could count on all the time with the favorite 30 caliber mags back then. Those few-shot long-range record setters in or below the 2 inch range are mostly luck; but then luck's the big thing in benchrest.

Yes, my background's high power. But I shot 2 Xes shy of breaking a smallbore prone record a few years ago when I was beating the kids on the Olympic Team.

Are those 1/2 MOA 10-shot groups with over 2500 rounds the largest they shoot? My experience and observations convince me they're a once-in-a-while occasion.

Did you ever know an ex US Navy SEAL named R.J. Thomas?
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2012, 08:35 AM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

Let's see the 60's; model 70's, one or two barrel makers, surplus 4831, "Match bullets" kind of a misnomer.

21st century; several excellent custom action makers, a multitude of high quality barrel makers, an unending list of propellants, match quality bullets like we have never had ( both factory and custom ), Oehler 43's, borescopes, meplat trimmers, pointing dies, high quality optics, etc.

Funny those same "LUCKY" people shoot very small groups over and over again through hard work, skill and yes there's a bit of luck when shooting at extreme distances. I think there's a bit of luck in all shooting disciplines don't you?

To my knowledge I've never met the gentleman.
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2012, 12:20 PM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

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Originally Posted by DAVETOOLEY View Post
Let's see the 60's; model 70's, one or two barrel makers, surplus 4831, "Match bullets" kind of a misnomer.
Dave, there appears to be a few things you need to be aware of.............

Winchester 70's with 30 caliber barrels have been shooting sub 1/2 MOA test groups at 600 yards and sub 3/4 MOA ones at 1000 yards since the late 1950's and early 1960's. They used IMR4064 in .308's and IMR4350 in Fred Huntington's .30-.338 Win. Mag. with Sierra's then new HPMK bullets that tested in the ones in Sierra's 100-yard test tunnel. Some of the test groups fired decades ago make current bench records look huge by comparison. Lapua bullets had one 10-shot 600-yard group in the American Rifleman in late 1971 pictured in their ad; it was 7/8 inch and just one of several in that range shot that day from a Hart barreled Winchester Model 70. Even well rebuilt 7.62 NATO M14NM's and M1's would shoot good lots of commercial match ammo inside 4 inches at 600 yards all day long back then.

When machine rests weren't available, top competitors would test their shoulder fired rifles prone resting the stock toe and fore end on sand bags. Rifles were held virtually wiggle-free; close to how free-recoiling benchrest ones were shot. Much better than even the best prone competitors could hold since the early 1900's. Top scoring ones would hold 5/8 to 3/4 MOA on paper then try to break their shots inside 3/8 or 1/2 MOA. As they have to go out of position to reload for long range matches, getting back into exactly the same position for each shot was and still is near impossible. Then add the inconsistant shoulder fired rifle holding and it's no wonder a 1/2 MOA (at worst) long range rifle shoots 1-1/2 MOA on paper for the most part. The 20-shot prone 600 and 1000 yard records on bullseye targets just fill the 1 MOA X ring.

Long range benchrest rifle 6- and 10-group aggregate records tell me things are no better these days; individual groups range from about 3/4 to 1/4 MOA. As far as I knoe, no single 5-shot record holder also holds a 6- or 10-group aggreate record; such is the odds of benchrest.

But give me a break; I'm a weirdo in high power rifle accuracy. To me, accuracy is what one can count on all the time; not that 1% of all groups fired that are at the tiniest dimesnion possible. Note that all benchrest few-shot record holders know that all their other groups are larger. They just don't tell us how much larger. There's just as many really tiny ones as there are really big ones.

Last edited by Bart B; 04-23-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  #21  
Old 04-23-2012, 01:20 PM
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Re: 300 Norma Mag

So let's see one 10 shot group at 600 yds. published in1971 in the American Rifleman is gospel. One test at Sierra in the tunnel out of a machine rest, probably shooting 168's- big deal.

Current IBS aggregate records, that means each group was shot in different conditions, different days over the course of a season. That tells me somebody made their own luck.

Light gun 5 shot groups

6 match 3.9007"
10 match 5.331"

Heavy gun 10 shot groups

6 match 5.2865"
10 match 6.0244"

I will concede the small group thing up to a point. It takes skill to get close time after time but then some luck is needed to shoot the really small groups.

"It was better in the good old days". That's BS. We have better everything including shooters irregardless of discipline today. Damn I hate I missed the glory days.
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