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300/338 Lapua Imp

 
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Old 02-04-2003, 09:54 PM
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Location: Palmer, Alaska
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300/338 Lapua Imp

I've been getting alot of recommendations on reamer specs, who makes the best ones, neck and throat specs, pillars and block installation and you name it.

This is what I've found thus far.

A whopping 90% recommended I get my reamers from Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/.

I want to post a copy of an email John Ricks replied with, you all might find usefull info in it to help you in a similar situation designing your own reamers and such.

Brent,

I have a 338 Improved 40 degree reamer and a 338 improved 37 degree "Rogue" reamer. The 40 degree reamer has about 0.002" clearance over a slightly turned neck. The 37 degree reamer requires neck turning. I am building a heavy class 1000 yard rifle now with the 37 degree reamer.

Best place to buy reamers is from Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool in White City, Oregon. I have used all reamer makers (JGS, Clymer, Hendrickson, Forsberg, Redford, Hartford) and Dave Kiff is the best in making exactly what you want with no extra charges. Just be sure to tell Dave exactly what you want and have him send you an approval drawing before the reamer is ground, as he grinds exactly what the customer specifies, and if you have a mistake in the dimensions it is your responsibility. I have over 100 reamers in the drawers and I buy only from Dave Kiff now, this should tell you something.

Be sure to consider the case base dimension when specifying the reamer and it is best to make up a dummy round with your bullet of choice seated properly in the case. Send this dummy round to the reamer maker and have the throat ground about 0.010" off the lands. I fudge a little and seat the bullet slightly deeper in the case as most reamer makers grind the throat a little long. Plus after a hundred rounds or so the throat moves.

On a big case like the Lapua, you want about 0.002" final clearance on the neck and 0.003" to 0.005" at the rear of the chamber. Of course a hunting rifle chamber is set up much differently with more clearance.

And whom ever cuts the chamber for you needs a set of pilots in 0.0002" increments so he can fit a tight pilot to the bore. An important note, most gunsmiths that re barrel actions do not know how to properly set up a barrel in the lathe for a precision match chamber. And if the gunsmith is not using a muzzle flush coolant system, good floating reamer holder, and a few other special tools, he is wasting your time and money.

Let me know if you need more help.


--- John Ricks
--- rifles@earthlink.net
---Web Site at http://home.earthlink.net/~rifles/


Thanks Steve for pointing him out to me. One other person did as well.

Steve,

I wonder what problems you ran into with the type bedding block I described earlier, the one bedding the barrel you refered to? I'd like to point that out to my smith when I talk to him next when I tell him I want the full bedding block made like the pic Jay sent me.

Onother guy told me he likes the FL die to be no more than .002" smaller in dia. on the body of the case.

I wonder if I could get a few things from you all reguarding the Yogi to help me figure out the differences between the dies and the reamers dia? I don't want the FL sized cases to be any looser than necessary but I need to size them small enough so they definatly chamber easily. I'd like to compare notes with the other reommendations I've gotten.

I should have asked Dave Tooley while I had him on the phone but didn't think of it at the time. He definatly will not give anyone specific dimentions on his reamers, but the difference in base diameter is all I need to design one of my own if I need to. I'll call him in the morning and see what he recommends the difference to be between the two reamers.

Anyway, can you guys with the Yogi's and the Wolf's tell me what the base dia. is on a piece of your brass that has been fired and one that has been sized?

I'd like to get a collective measurement from you guys with different lots of brass of the base dia. just above the extractor groove and one from the maximum dia. near the base if it happens to be larger?

I'm courious to know the base dia. of each of your sizing dies to get an idea of the springback if there's any, could you provide this as well?

Man this seems like work getting edjucated on all these little details, I had no idea it was going to involve this much.

I appreciate your help.

Thanks,

[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: Brent ]
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  #2  
Old 02-05-2003, 10:20 AM
AKI AKI is offline
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Re: 300/338 Lapua Imp

Brent, thanks for forwarding John Ricks mail.

My smith is cutting a 300 Lapua Improved (33°) for me right now, but we run into chatter problems, not severe, but present.

He explained to me that a reamer cut to different diameter every time (depends on how precise you are able to measure). Whorse is that a reamer cut to significantly different dia in different steels. So a FL sizer reamer might cut a die that is wider that the matched chamber reamer cut in the barrel. Extreme case, ofcourse, but the point is that itīs no use to order two reamers that are too close. The result might be other than expected. AKI
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:03 PM
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Re: 300/338 Lapua Imp

AKI,

Appreciate the heads up. That sounds like a nightmare! Does he knows what he doing, is he reputable?

Here's an email reply from Shawnie tools and he recommends 3/10,000th difference??? I asked him to address the difference in his to Johns and others recommendations. I'm waiting for the reply now.

Brent,

You will need both a chamber reamer and a die reamer. The die reamer is 3/10,000th under the chamber reamer. You can either request a neck turner or come up with the specific neck dimension yourself. Is that what you were after?

Shawnie


Shawnie Tools / Elk Ridge Stocks
(541)471-9161 Mon-Fri 9am - 4pm Pacific http://www.4reamers.com http://www.4scopes.com http://www.4gunstocks.com
840 NW 6th St., #F
Grants Pass, OR 97526

I'm going to call Dave Tooley now and ask him what he thinks works well and I should use. Appreciate the help.
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:21 PM
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Re: 300/338 Lapua Imp

I just got off the phone with Dave Tooley. He said you shouldn't be having problems at all cutting identical chambers like that, even in different type steels. He told me 3/10,000th will NOT work at all, period. He said most of his are between .003" and .004" that's 3- 4/1,000th. You can always hone them out but you can't make them tighter he said.

Anyone have any brass/die measuurements yet?

Thanks,

Just got this reply from Shawnie.

Slip of the zero's, yes it is 3/1,000ths sorry!

Shawnie Tools / Elk Ridge Stocks



[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: Brent ]
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Old 02-07-2003, 04:30 PM
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Re: 300/338 Lapua Imp

Everything I wrote was just deleated...That sucks! Anyway...I hate it when that happens!

Thanks for the help Steve.

CrowMag has helped me out here alot too and I just want to say thanks alot guys.

A caliper reading an 1/8" up in the die will give me something to compare to the one CM gave me as well. I'll just add .001" to it because of the blade width for a better idea.

Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool has helped me out quite a bit on this too. He's a super nice and helpfull guy, if you all have a chance to talk to him he's highly recommended.

I have been wrighting alot and now doing it all over again, so I'll be short.

I know what you mean Steve, about the quality gunsmith, more later. My smith Dave, he's good, and not shy of a beer and game of pool either. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

He's built many big bench rifles, the last one was a beautifull 300 Ultra about 65#. Too big for me right now! Started with about a 4"x10" block of laminate and man what a beautifull gun now! The thing shoots little bughole groups with so many types of ammunition you'd swear I was lying! Reminds me of STLshooters rifle.

Hers will be lighter but should do close to the same I hope.

Dave's going to build my dad a left bolt right port and a rt bolt lt port rem 700 next year. Dad wanted my wifes action to use with his bolt and me to use his action to do it now but naaaaaaa, I don't think so. I'm making him buy his own to let Dave experiment on. Dave loves to experiment on your rifle if you let him, so does my dad. Many are all to willing and have some very, very nice rifles as a result.

I just want the tried and proven on this rifle of hers. Experiments will have to wait. I'll end up with dads rt bolt left port 700 I'm sure of it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Dad wipped out a Badger Ordinance bolt knob he got yesterday. I asked him if he was going to have dave put it on or what... He pulled out the hacksaw and proceeded to do it right then himself. I haven't seen the results yet but he said it worked out fine.

I'll get my own lathe and mill soon and do the work myself so alot of my questions center around learning what I can so when I do get them I'll have some clue about certain things.

I hate the one step forward then two steps backwards routine. I try to make a WELL informed decision about most things. If I don't feel comfortable about making a decision yet, I'm usually patient enough wait until I do. A bigger payoff in the end basically. I do have an impulsive side but that's another story my wife tells best. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Appreciate all the help guys. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 02-08-2003, 12:26 AM
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Re: 300/338 Lapua Imp

Brent,
Sorry for the delay in responding. FYI: I think all my email problems are solved now.... I hope.

On to your questions:

I wonder what problems you ran into with the type bedding block I described earlier, the one bedding the barrel you refered to?
In the late 80's my friend Bob tried the barrel bedding technique you had mentioned when he shot at Williamsport. The only difference was that Bob had bedded the whole barrel channel with (5) screws that were pillar bedded. So the barrel was glassed into the forarm the bottom 180 degrees of its circumference for the full length of the forarm. The rifle used a Six Hall unlimited pattern stock, 1.450" x 30" barrel, Interarms MarkX solid bottom action, scope mounted on the action. The action was 100% free floating, chambered in a 30KK (basically a 308 Baer) that was throated for 190-200gr bullets.
The first year with that setup Bob kept getting vertical stringing and could never get it tuned out. I forget what the actual agg was for Bob at the end of that season but it wasn't good for all 10 matches.
Well, Kenny Kleinendorst (the gunsmith that built it) tore the rifle down over the winter and glassed/pillar bedded the action and the first 2 or 3" of the barrel with everything else floating from there forward. The only other change was recrowning the barrel to have a fresh crown. Everything else was the same as the previous year. Again I can't remember Bob's agg at the end of this second year but it was several inches smaller and the vertical went away. That's the biggest factor in my book. The only thing that changed was the bedding and it went from a tendancy for vertical stringing to shooting round groups by floating the barrel. So based on that I wouldn't recommend bedding the barrel only and floting other things to save the weight.

I'd like to point that out to my smith when I talk to him next when I tell him I want the full bedding block made like the pic Jay sent me.
I know Jay and he makes good stuff. Those blocks look like they were well built and would do the trick with minimal weight increase. Blocks are really the safe road to take. But it depends on how important weight is to you also.

I wonder if I could get a few things from you all reguarding the Yogi to help me figure out the differences between the dies and the reamers dia? I don't want the FL sized cases to be any looser than necessary but I need to size them small enough so they definatly chamber easily. I'd like to compare notes with the other reommendations I've gotten.
I should have asked Dave Tooley while I had him on the phone but didn't think of it at the time. He definatly will not give anyone specific dimentions on his reamers, but the difference in base diameter is all I need to design one of my own if I need to. I'll call him in the morning and see what he recommends the difference to be between the two reamers.
Anyway, can you guys with the Yogi's and the Wolf's tell me what the base dia. is on a piece of your brass that has been fired and one that has been sized?


I'll try when I get home from work. Don't know if I have a fired case that hasn't been sized yet though to compare to.

I'd like to get a collective measurement from you guys with different lots of brass of the base dia. just above the extractor groove and one from the maximum dia. near the base if it happens to be larger?
I'm courious to know the base dia. of each of your sizing dies to get an idea of the springback if there's any, could you provide this as well?


I'll try but I only have calipers to measure inside diamters. And I'm measuring a tapered hole so I'll give it my best shot.

Man this seems like work getting edjucated on all these little details, I had no idea it was going to involve this much.

Been there done that. That's why I always say find a known LR smith that you get along with and trust. Any decent smith can build a barreled action parrallel and perpendicular. That's the easy part. But not all smiths have dealt with the cases/powder/bullets of the bigger chamberings most LR shooters deal with and this can save you a lot of headaches in the long run if the smith you use has first hand knowledge. That's one of the reason I use Dave for my services, I shoot next to him at almost every match so I know he "knows the game" sort of speaking. Plus I know he;s done a lot of experiementing with LR stuff outsdie of sompetition. PLUS.... he likes a beer or 2 afterward and he's got a nice Golden Retriever that loves ear scratches and bisquits when I go to his shop. : )
But I know your location in Alaska puts a crimp in that way of thinking so I'll help the best I can.

Steve
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Old 02-11-2003, 11:37 AM
AKI AKI is offline
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Re: 300/338 Lapua Imp

Brent. Four out of the seven individual gold medals at the European Benchrest Championships last August were won with "his" rifles. Even more gold was won with his reloading gear. That should make him reputable, I guess, so despite me being a born sceptic, I do listen to his advice and ideas. AKI
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