Now that we have gotten through an apparently long and dysfunctional detour about honest invitations(#666) to thousand yard benchrest shooting, I will try and share some more information about the 30/338 and some of its variants.
I stated earlier that someone willing to invest in a custom action would be wise to choose a Wolf or a Lapua variant because I have learned through testing that with equal barrel lengths and equal pressure, the Lapua will give slightly better velocity, but significantly better accuracy, and orders of magnitude better case life.
This does not make the Tomahawk a bad cartridge, it just means that there are better choices if you are not handicapped by a boltface .540 inches in diameter.
Depending on the barrel length that you choose, the advantages discussed above may get larger or smaller. The velocities I posted previously are not maximum velocities, they are simply what shot that particular bullet the most accurate in one of my Wolfs on a Winchester action. Another fact you may find useful is that there is very little gain in velocity by going to a larger case than the Wolf if your barrel is not well past the 34 inch mark.
I have built big 30 Cal's on 30-378 Weatherby cases with water capacity as small as 109 gr., and as large as 130 gr.
I have built variants on the lapua case as small as 114 gr. and as large as 123 gr. of water. The 30 Wolf configuration is the best set up we have come up with, considering accuracy and velocity being the primary consideration. We have shot 253 gr. bullets 3160 feet per second, and 190 gr. bullets 3440 feet per second with the Wolf. This data comes from a 30 inch barrel.
I have built Wolfs on AW, Nesika Bay,H.S Precision, Bat, Winchester, and Kodiak actions. All of these actions produce tremendous accuracy, my first choice would be the Nesika. I believe that what is more important than the action selection is that a stock is picked that is extremely rigid. I think that with a gun this big it is also a big advantage to select a stock with a butt plate thats as close to the centerline of the bore as possible.
If you have more questions do not hesitate to ask, I have built many variations on multiple cases and would be happy to share information so that you and other shooters on this forum can get one person's perspective. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Have you tested the standard(unimproved)30/338 Lapua and if so do you know what the velocity would be with a 240 SMK, assuming the barrel length is between 30"-34". Also is the capacity of the case around 112-113 grs of water? As stated before I would like to go with an unimproved case but if improving it makes it significantly better I might consider do the improved version. Thanks again to everyone for their comments and input.
Yes we did shoot a few of the unimproved cases, it was quite a few years ago, and I don't have the specific data. I do remember that with 200 gr. bullets, and a 28 inch barrel, 6 or 7 gr. of the increase in powder capacity was worth about 100 feet per second.
Keep in mind there is about a 70 to 80 fps difference between a 30 inch barrel and a 34 inch barrel. My experience tells me that with a 30 inch barrel you will not reach 3050 fps at safe pressures with a 240 gr. bullet. I think however, with a 34 inch barrel and an improved cartridge, 3100 fps will be easy to achieve with several powder choices, and your case life will be significantly longer. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
My comments were attempted to be posted in a way that was non-personal, however you cannot seem to grasp that concept, right "Dude"y Boy?
The origal off track comments/claims started 40 miles WEST of the Mississipi, not East.
You are right, I am not a gunsmith and never claimed to be. So by your logic you must be a self proclaimed "world record" gunsmith ( to be credible or a "Dudey boy camp follower". Think we all understand where you are coming from.
I do not shoot or own a 30/338 you are right, I shoot a 338 Ack Improved as my primary LR hunting rig now.
However, I do like your logic in this matter. Because I do not shoot a 30/338, which in your logic means I have no right to comment, that means also that "If we do not build and shoot proven world record guns" we do not have to right to discuss or claim them under the "West of the Mississippi" rules or do your self-appointed rules only apply East of the Mississsippi?
I never made any comments on the veracity of the 30/338 only the origial "West of the Mississippi" off track remarks about "world record guns and 1K organization rules" that were totally wrong. Duh, did not see 30/338 load info anywhere in there either. You do remember those comments don't you?
Goes back to my post ref fairness of your comments, and your reluctance/inability to address the original off post comments from West of the Mississippi.
As for your presumptive comments about my pocketbook and philosophical position, you do not know anything about them, nor will you ever! However, that is your ASSssumption that shows blatant ignorance and arrogance. I think you assume too much Dudey Boy.
Think it is time to back off and let this thread die it's just deserved death.
People who voted for Gen. Eisenhower the year he ran for president should not use the word to 'dude', it is not dignified.
If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me to come shoot at Williamsport it would probably pay my match fees for a year.
I know where Pennsylvania is and the last time I checked the United States is still a free country. Although I have competed hundreds of times, I have not had time to compete since September of 2001. My home range holds four matches of different types each month, the first chance I get a free weekend I will probably shoot at my own club. The first chance I get to travel, I will probably go and shoot down in Tennessee with Fat boys group,they sound like they have a lot of fun at their matches. And they seem to lack the need for all those arbitrary rules and gamesmanship that I sense are the culture at Williamsport.
DC---- you should pay LEN a fee every time you plug Williamsport outside of the competition thread. Based on the e-mail I have received from over 60 members of long-range hunting I can honestly say that the vast majority of people respect your opinion but truly wish you would stop interjecting invitations, challenges, and comments about thousand yard bench resting, or spotter shooting systems, when they simply want to trade technical information with other people they respect about a different subject on this forum.
Many people feel this way, however, only STL_SHOOTER has had the courage to point this out to you. Count me as No. 2. People are ripping on the name of your club now because your club's name finds its way into all of these threads that have nothing to do with competition.
Just do a search for Williamsport and look at the result, do you get the point yet?
You as a moderator should be setting an example that promotes the exchange of information, including information with subject matter that does not need to include your fine club.
I have said this before, and I will say it again, it obviously warrants repeating, because you missed the point the first time.
"I have built many rifles capable of shooting world record groups at 1000 yards. However, they are in fact not world record rifles, they do not shoot in competitions, nor are they legal at Williamsport or any other thousand yards benchrest range.
I will continue to build new technology into rifles for people who love to shoot at long-range and don't need a plaque or a certified world record to enjoy this rewarding sport." [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
I have seen many shooters shoot sub the world record groups with my rifles and with other people's rifles. The fact that it didn't happen at Williamsport does not diminish the skill of the SHOOTER the skill of the machinist. You may be as skeptical as you like, the fact remains there are hundreds of intelligent people that are keenly aware of the accuracy that my technology brings to shooting at long-range. Whether or not I choose to build something that fits your rules classes at Williamsport becomes a function of time, money, and priorities. I would sure like to see DC and BH compete at Williamsport this year with rifles they built with their own hands, I suspect if the truth be told, they will spend their time struggling with the technical issues that revolve around loading ammunition. I am curious however, in how many 1000 yards record holding gunsmiths, actually shot the world record with the gun they built with their own hands. I suspect that like any other task with a high task multiplicity, the best shooters are not the best gunsmiths, and the best gunsmiths are not the best 1000 yard shooters. Most people who are truly interested in the technology that I developed, simply say "will you build me a gun to these specifications using your technology?" You see, we already know what we do works and works better than what you're gunsmiths do. Using parametric testing techniques, and scientific methods that are repeatable, we verify results over and over again. I feel no need to prove this technology at Williamsport, we shoot in tunnels, and outdoors, and in the mountains. If you are truly interested in a competitive edge, perhaps you will accept my invitation to come to Missouri and learn. Len Backus did, and I think if you asked him he would tell you he saw and heard things he has never seen or heard before. You may always choose to continue your arguments, all while focused on that ammunition, or you could travel to Missouri someday, give me a call, and I will show you a better way to build a rifle.
"As for your presumptive comments about my pocketbook and philosophical position, you do not know anything about them, nor will you ever! However, that is your ASSssumption that shows blatant ignorance and arrogance."
Funny, I don't remember you shooting any groups with rifles I have made. It seems to me you are the ASSumption King.
How you missed the load data I posted must speak to old age and blindness.
You having never shot, held, measured, or otherwise been associated with anything I have built, this speaks to the foolishness of your comments in reference to any subset of rules for a particular class of shooting. The fact is you do not own, or load for a 30/338 Lapua, and probably could not even build a squirt gun. So why don't you go find a thread where you can offer some useful information to someone who is willing to rely on your limited technical knowledge.