After reading the posts of DC and BH we have all learned:
1) Having an unlimited class would not "unlevel" the playing field. Everyone would still be playing by the same rules in that class. The rules would just not be so constraining.
2) We all know that if you haven't already built a championship winning 1000 yard gun, your chances of doing so are Slim and none. Not to mention Slim is probably shooting a high-power match somewhere in South America. What will they do when all the current record holding smiths pass away?
3) Any gun that will group under one inch at 600 yards, will absolutely shoot like crap at 1000 yards.
4) good groups and good shooting don't just count at Williamsport.
5) Guys that have never built a 1/10 MOA rifle sure know a lot about how to do it.
"OPRAH SAYS".......That whole parrot what you hear thing.....
Having shot well past 1000 yards for over a decade with many shooters, I can honestly say that I have seen guys like Malcolm Cooper and H.B. and even myself on a lucky day shoot sub world record groups. The problem with some guys is that if it doesn't happen at their facility (Williamsport) it probably didn't happen, or definitely does not count. There are probably 30 gunsmiths that I know of that are capable of building rifles that will shoot near the cg offset of the chosen pojectiles. Any one of these men are record class gunsmiths based on their enormous skill. The reality is only a small subset will hold records at any given time, simply because the gun they built was in the right hands, on the correct day, at a formal sanctioned competition. There is a lot of talent in this country, not just in machining but also in shooting. Some of this talent chooses to shoot in 1000 yard benchrest competitions, others choose to hunt or shoot recreationally, and some even choose other forms of competition(the nerve!). Their choices do not make them inferior shooters, simply different than the boys at Williamsport or any other 1000 yard facility.
I have even seen a handful of 1/4 MOA groups shot by the master, H.B., at 2,000 plus yards. Wish you could have been there!
Can I build rifles as good as the rifles setting world records in 1000 yard competition? Absolutely yes, along with about 30 other guys.
Will one of my rifles ever win a match at Williamsport?
Who cares! So many shooting events, so little time!
Pac Nor makes great barrels, and the action you have chosen is an excellent platform for a 30 Wolf. I would be happy to help you with your project, whether I do your machine work or not. You can e-mail me at S1@ARTACTICAL.COM [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Your 4 or 5 example explanations really don't apply or make sense at all especially #1 where you talk about an unlimited class not putting everyone on a level playing field.
When I said an unlimited class, that's what I meant---UNLIMITED wide open. I couldn't get it through. We have to many shooters as it is to add another class, was the answer I was given.
Where did you come up with the 600 yard 1" gun not shooting at 1000 yards? All that was ever mentioned was, it is a big difference shooting 10 shots at 1000 yards as compared to 3 or 5 shots at 600 yards and you of all people should know that.
BH and I are simply inviting you to come and shoot at one of the 1000 yard organized matches in the country. He represents the Virginia 1000 yd club (IBS) and I the Williamsport club.
You speak of shooting for many years and building guns of superior accuracy that will be capable of World Record accuracy and that's what we would like to see. Quite possibly you can do that? We don't know as we have never heard of, or have seen you put it on paper. That's not to say you can't.
We need more competitors such as yourself with that type of experiance to possibly give us more ideas in the shooting arena.
I truly like to Longrange hunt but, I also like the competition that 1000 yard match shooting affords my wife and I.
Possibly you don't approve of or like organized 1000 yard match shooting but, many of us do.
It would seem that you would have been into the 1000 yard Match shooting years ago with the interest you have in placing a bullet from point A to Point B as per your posts.
I can understand how busy you are and possibly have been over the years in the capacity you have held but, theres always time for a 1000 yard match or two along the way.
We are only inviting you to come to a match sometime and give it a try.
Were not saying you can or can't do something, just come and try it sometime.
There are many organized 1000 yard ranges in the country now and some that are not to far away from you.
It doesn't have to be Williamsport but, the invite is always open there from me.
So when you have time and want to try a 1000 yard match please come and give it a try and I know BH feels the same way.
Once again, trying to answer the thread originator's questions...
Wayne, yes, as S1 has indicated, he has built many rifles on actions other than Nesika. I've shot his Winchester-based Wolf, and it sure helped convince me that the Nesika Wolf would be a most excellent rifle. I've also seen an example of his "Mountain Wolf" design, based on a Winchester action, but with a lighter barrel taper for extended carry and use at higher altitudes.
Darryl and BountyHunter, let me be the first among this distinguished group of shooters to formally recognize you two as the toughest boys on the block. Why, you can't seem to let a post go by, no matter what the content or topic, without turning it into a personal challenge to a match at Williamsport, or at least a commercial for the the "Williamsport Way".
Please understand when some of us, not beholden to Williamsfart, choose only to yawn...
STL. Principal Consultant and Managing Partner - Association of Bifurcated Tangential Ballistic Apologists, LLP.
Think you missed the point and intent of my post. It was not a challenge, it was an invitation! It was also pointing out the the differences between IBS and Williamsport in ref to S1's post that he is building winning guns and directly stating that he has no venue to prove it. Which is not true, he has the venue if he wishes to take advanatage of it and relatively close to him!
However, when you have the confidence and boldness to make statements like that; imply that you could prove it IF you had a venue that was legal for your guns; and always talking about how "you cross the lines that everyone has that limits them", then you and your defenders are a little naive and disengenous to everyone else to think that will go unnoticed if there is a legal venue. Don't you agree with that?
Williamsport has the most stringent rules on gun configuration, but IBS does not. His guns and others are legal in IBS while they may not be legal at Williamsport.
So IF he really wants to shoot, then he has the venues to do it and relatively close to him and to not do it is a personal decision, not that the opportunity is not there.
My explanation of the IBS format vs the Williamsport, was an invitation open to him and any other LR shooter that wants to try 1K BR but does not have a gun that meets PA standards. I hunt LR and shoot 1k BR for fun. Most other people that try it enjoy it also.
Personally, I am happy for anyone that can come into this game and shoot in the top 5 of a two day 3 agg match, particularily if they win overall for both LG and HG. They are truly on their game with guns and their skills, and my hat is off to them!!!!
The IBS Nationals are unique in the amount and quantity of prizes they give to shooters around $40K. If you have a winning gun and are capable of shooting it, then you can walk away with a new action and scope normally and more. We have drawings all day, each day and give away scopes and other goodies. Almost everyone wins something.
The IBS 1k BR Nationals are Labor day weekend and an open INVITATION to everyone to come shoot, enjoy the time, meet good shooters and learn and have fun most of all.
PS: I am not a member at Williamsport, never shot at Williamsport and do not advertise for them also so please do not make statements that I do, get your implications straight when you add my name to something.
I don't recall mentioning your name in my last post.
I was honestly being nice and inviting S1 to "any" 1000 yard match in the country, not just Williamsport as you must have missed in the content.
There was nothing pertaining to you what so ever in that invite unless you would want to come along that is. With your "yawn" in the last sentence, I presume you wouldn't and that's fine. Anyone that doesn't know how to spell Williamsport need not apply.
When you speak of someone NOT letting a post go by, quite possibly you should look alittle closer to home and with those you are friends with?
BH and DC are not the "tough Guys" on the block as you mentioned.
I simply made an invite, if you or anyone else took it another way well, slap my hands with a ruler.
A noted 1000 yard gunsmith back this way always says, you can bust rocks and hit steel gongs all day long for fun but, if you want to see the true accuracy of your rifle, fire 5 and then 10 shots at a target at 1000 yards and go for a nice tight group. That is if, your rifle is made for that yardage or further. If it shoots nice tight round groups in the low single digits you have a keeper.
I guess what some of us are thinking and saying is, "show us". We enjoy excellent shooting and quite possibly a World Record could be broken in the process? Many of us could possibly learn from S1 and his shooting tecnique?
That's the reason for the invite.
If "nobody" on this entire forum is interested in doing or not doing that , so be it.
We would just "honestly" like to see S1 shoot his rifle. He sounds VERY experianced at what he does.
Hope that cleared some things up that you may not have gathered from the posts. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Dude - you still don't get it. You just can't see it. You simply cannot comprehend it. It, it, it. It is just beyond your grasp. You are in denial.
I will type verry slowwwwly this time.
EVERY POST ON THIS BOARD IS NOT A PERSONAL INVITATION FOR YOU TO HIJACK, ADVERTISE, CAST ASPERSIONS, AND IN GENERAL, BULLY POSTERS WITH YOUR CHEST STUCK OUT.
THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS A QUESTION REGARDING LOADS FOR THE 30/338 LAPUA, WITH WHICH A FEW OF US HAVE REAL, LIVE, VALUABLE EXPERIENCE.
I DO NOT SEE WAYNE ASKING YOU FOR YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER YOU BELIEVE MY RIFLE WILL SHOOT GROUPS, ETC. I DO NOT SEE WAYNE ASKING WHETHER THE "WILLIAMSPORT WAY" ALLOWS FOR S1-DESIGNED RIFLES TO PLAY. AND ON AND ON.
PLEASE DO NOT TURN THESE THREADS INTO DOUBT CASTING SESSIONS ON RIFLES, METHODS, OR WHATEVER.
Unless, of course, Len's intention for this board was for it to be your personal stomping ground, where other ideas, methods and technologies must take a back seat to whatever you are promoting at the moment.
Oh, and by the way, by your own rules - you are disqualified. Note the spelling of your club name in the first sentence.
"I was honestly being nice and inviting S1 to "any" 1000 yard match in the country, not just Williasport as you must have missed in the content.....Anyone that doesn't know how to spell Williamsport need not apply."
I'm tired of this. I'm finished...
STL. Principal Consultant and Managing Partner - Association of Bifurcated Tangential Ballistic Apologists, LLP.