Was wondering about the 3/8MOA groups.
How far was that and how many shots?
Being that 1 MOA at 1000 yards is 10", If you hold that 3/8 MOA with 10 shots and at 1000 yards, you have a World Record rifle there.
Even with 5 shots at that distance (1000 yards), you would be doing great. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
That's exactly how the Williamsport range had it's beginnings. A large group of Longrange hunters had been arguing how accurate their rifles were and how far they were killing deer in the northern part of PA.
Five guys got together and formed the club and said, well, if you think your rifles are so accurate, lets form a 1000 yard club and put it on paper at 1000 yards and shoot 10 shots. THe first match in 1967 over 80 shooters showed up.
Anyway you have a fine shooting rifle if it will hold anywhere near 3/8MOA at 1000 yards and with 5 or 10 shots. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
as an add on here, most of the LR shooters in this area judge every rifle on how well it does at 1000 yards.
We have seen some that shoot terrific at 100 yards and not worth a darn at 1000 yards and "vise versa."
The lighter 30 cal bullets normally don't do very well in the 1000 yard competitions at Williamsport either. Maybe thats why the demand is not very good for the 178 gr you mentioned?
Trust me, the velocities I post are true and accurate or I wouldn't post them.
Respectfully, I wonder if you took what I said the wrong way, not sure though.
If I had meant to say you were full of ****, I would have said just that, I did not. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] What I more correctly meant to say was this; I thought you attained those velocities with max load data for the cartridges mentioned or just over that concerning their improved versions. I was thinking of an apples to apples comparison, there lies the confusion.
Perplexed? Not any more. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] You clarified things well in your posts.
I have loaded my 338wm up with 250gr X bullets over 73gr of H4350 or 70gr of 4831 with no visible or felt pressure signs and got 3050 fps on average. This was way over the book velocity and pressure was likely very high, but nonetheless attainable using Federal HE brass, although I don’t recommend using the load now, I have traveled the road… I decided to get the 416wby and play it safer to get the same performance at less pressure.
I was loading for my 416wby when I first got it and found the same as you, the book said 108gr of RL22 would produce 2700 fps with a 400gr X bullet. Well, I carefully went to 120gr before I was at 2700 fps, which was the widest spread I’d ever seen too. I stopped there and worked back down until I had good accuracy with one grain less. So I have seen exactly what you said first hand as well.
During the last year, I have worked up a lot of loads in 9 different rifles while testing pressure with the Oehler 43 this last year, and have come to learn that bolt lift, primer condition, etc, etc is most often not observed until 75,000 psi and only sometimes at just above 70k psi.
Velocity however, this runs hand in hand with psi in every test, and often is very linier as well. This is a good thing for all that use chronographs while working up loads. Most loads take as much as 5-7gr to go from 65k psi to 75k and some take 3-5, while I’ve seen a few that did it in less than 2 grains. One just never knows how much to back down after observing obvious psi signs.
Velocity doesn’t come free, it is at the expense of psi in every case I’ve tested. If there is one thing I have learned and would take away from the experience of using the Oehler 43 it would be that psi is far better observed by watching velocity using book loads while considering barrel length and not the classic indicators, although one should not ignore them if they show up first. All my data suggests that once you observe the classic signs, you are “way” over what one would normally want to subject his rifle to repeatedly, which leads me to another point.
Just so everyone knows, weather you use a commercial or custom action, makes no difference which, this or the barrel will fail if subjected to repeated “proof” class loads in a predictable number of cycles, this is fact and not speculation. You assume the risk, the guy at the bench next to you hopes you have not taken to big of one. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
I know there is a few more guys here that have load data for the 30/338 Lapua or the improved version and I know that’s what you’re really wanting here, hope they post for you too. Sorry this thread got off track so damn quick, that always bites.
If anyone else has loads and velocities, I could use the data too. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Please post all of them that you have, I work up slowly so if it’s a max load just state it, no problem.
Thanks for the information concerning the 5 shot groups at 600 yards with the 30/338 Lapua IMP..
I was wondering about the distance you had mentioned your 3/8 MOA as it "did" apply to the overall content and capability of "your" rifle or you would not have mentioned it..
Keep up the good testing and shooting.
Frankly, I was interested in what the cartridge was doing and how accurate it was, especiially if you shot it at 1000 yards which you explained was not the case.
Some of our shooters at Williamsport are using the 338 Lapua case necked to 30 and improved.
I too, will let you know if I think your full of **** if that's what I'm thinking at the time. I tell it like it is too. I prefer to do that face to face though when possible.
That was not the case in the comment about what I posted as velocity and what I have found in testing and shooting and your question concerning it. Again I say, I won't post something that is not true, regardless of the circumstance. If I have found something that is true and interesting to LR shooting, I will mention it to help anyone.
Thanks for the information on your findings concerning some loads listed in loading books which "WE" will both say are, "full of ****" in some of their listed cartridge publications. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
178 AMAX- RL-25 94.0 gr. V= 3,420 fps.
Retumbo 96.5 gr.
50-bmg 106 gr.
AA-8700 108 gr.
190 JLK RL-25 92 gr. V=3,340 fps.
Retumbo 94 gr.
50 Bmg 104 gr.
210 JLK RL-25 88 gr.
50 Bmg. 101 gr. V= 3,240 fps.
253 PRL 50 BMG. 99.5 gr. V= 3,120 fps
I have listed the velocity next to the load that was the most accurate in my 30 inch Lilja 3 groove barrel. It has been my experience that someone willing to purchase a custom action would be wise to choose a cartridge based on the Lapua case. The inherent accuracy and durability of the brass, is significantly different when shooting near maximum pressure. The brass preparation will consume some time, why not get twice as many firings from the same piece of brass. The superior accuracy is icing on the cake. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
I have built many rifles capable of shooting world record groups at 1000 yards. However, they are in fact not world record rifles, they do not shoot in competitions, nor are they legal at Williamsport or any other thousand yards benchrest range. These rifles shoot off bi pods that are not legal, using superior brakes that are not legal, using superior barrel tapers that are not legal. It is unfortunate that so many of the classes at 1000 yard ranges are so constrained. This mentality slows technical progress, and discourages the exploration of new ideas. In other sports, there are experimental formula classes, or true unlimited classes, so that new ideas can be tested in competition and proven or disproven. I will continue to build new technology into rifles for people who love to shoot at long-range and don't need a plaque or a certified world record to enjoy this rewarding sport. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]