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.280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

 
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  #8  
Old 12-18-2010, 06:30 PM
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Re: .280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

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Originally Posted by BlackKnight755 View Post
Gary,

Thanks for the reply and suggestions. Do you not think that the longer barrel, 32" would be beneficial when it comes to more FPS? I have a 6.5x284 with a 32" broughton 5C on it and I shoot through the chronny almost 100 FPS faster than my friend and his shorter hunting barrel. His is a 24" broughton 5C. We shot the same exact load for the test, and I KNOW that mine is more accurate than his especially at anything over 600 yards. Also OAL is not an issue as I will be single feeding the ammo, it will never see the inside of a magazine.

Thanks again for the reply, BK
I know I'll be staked over an anthill over this comment, but I'm also pretty thick skined!

* in a .284 sized case there is absolutly no need ever for a 32" barrel unless you are think the muzzel being 6" closer to the target will help. You only need enough barrel length to burn the existing powder in the case, and anything more creates other problems (harmonics), and that's using 8700 powder. On the other hand you can use a slightly faster powder burn and get virtually the same velocity.

* your testing is flawed when compairing two different guns and barrels even if they are of the same make. No two barrels shoot exactly the same. The only true test would be to cut the barrel a couple inches at a time till you reached a point in change that was significant.t would be interesting to do a case compairison between five once fired cases from each gun ( cases from the exact same lot number & die set). Just the throat alone can cause over a hundred feet per second difference.

Secondly the shorter barrel shooting 100 fps slower could well be from the load selection or even from the actual bore in the barrel. A load built for the 24" barrel will show no real gain in a 32" barrel, and may even end up slower. Build the rounds up using AA3100 or 4350 (perhaps MagPro?), and take another look see.

* Another major factor in accurate shooting is barrel harmonics. Kind of a black art, and often ignored way too much. In a high powered rifle you can only do so much to resolve the issue without going to a tuner. This is why heavy barrels tend to be a little more consistent and much more forgiving in our errors. Why? The rigidity of the barrel tends to fight the harmonics created by ignition, as well as the torque created by the bullet as it goes thru the barrel. The stiffer the barrel the better the groups as a rule. But there's some more to this. Lilja has stated that a typical #7 contour barrel 21" long will be 2.75 times stiffer than the same barrel 26" long (in otherwords the longer barrel is moving all over the place). It also becomes a tuning fork; thus creating bad harmonics. A 24" barrel compaired to a 32" barrel will probably be at least 2.5 times stiffer if not 4 times stiffer.

Not be mean, but pointing out a few facts
gary
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2010, 06:50 PM
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Re: .280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

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Originally Posted by BlackKnight755 View Post
... Ok, It has been said that there is no such animal as a .284 Ackley Improved. My next question is, can one be made and if so who could I get in touch with to see what I would need to do next? I know that I'm not inventing the wheel and I am sure and positive that I'm not the first on to think about the .284 as an Ackley Improved cartidge right?
except for the shoulder angle, the case fits all of Ackley's specs. He would have probably not called it an improved case because he would have increased the neck length to about .31" by pushing the shoulder back a little bit. For the case to be an improved case you have to be able to chamber and fire a factory case in the chamber. All I'm saying is that by changing the shoulder angle to 40 degrees you will not see much improvment in velocity, but have a slightly better flame path (very slight). But you push the shoulder back .06 to .093" with the 40 degree shoulder, and you have a different ball game. (also helps with case shrinkage issues during fire forming) You will see little if any loss in velocity, but increase case & barrel life signifcantly (6.5/.284's often eat barrels in 600 shots). Ackley didn't always improve a case to gain velocity, and often did it to increase case or barrel life. He was just way ahead of his time.

this weekend I'll make a CAD drawing of the two cases. One with the 40 degree shoulder and the other with the standard 35 degree shoulder. Yet keep the shoulder deminsion in the same place to see how the neck comes out. May do a third one with a .062" shoulder setback as well. Guys I know that are shooting 6/.284's (a real barrel eater) are pushing the shoulder back .100", and seeing no loss in velocity while the barrels lasts much longer. There are a couple I know that have gone so far as to push it back .150" (also shortening the neck a little bit), and are seeing about a 75 fps loss in velocity with much tighter groups. These barrels tell me that Ackley's vision of overbore was dead right.
gary
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2010, 02:29 PM
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Re: .280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

I also have a question for you guru's out there....I have a .284 Win with a mohawk 600 action and I love it to death, it seems like it is incapable of a miss when its time to dorp a critter. However, I was hoping to make it a 1000 yrd hunting rifle by adding a new HS Prescion stock and a Huskemaw 5-20. I was wondering if this in your opinion would be a waste of money or would I be happy with the results? I'm pretty sure I'll love the gun one way or another, but I'm not sure if the .284 has the juice to drop an elk at 1000yrds. I understand its all about shot placement and terminal performance, but is working up a load and putting $2000 in stock and optics worth it or should I step it up into the .30's? Personally, I think it should be ok, but I like to pick as many brains as I can before spending my money. Anyway, fire away and let me know what you guys who have been in the game longer think. thanks.

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  #11  
Old 03-09-2011, 12:46 AM
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Re: .280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

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Originally Posted by svendi View Post
I also have a question for you guru's out there....I have a .284 Win with a mohawk 600 action and I love it to death, it seems like it is incapable of a miss when its time to dorp a critter. However, I was hoping to make it a 1000 yrd hunting rifle by adding a new HS Prescion stock and a Huskemaw 5-20. I was wondering if this in your opinion would be a waste of money or would I be happy with the results? I'm pretty sure I'll love the gun one way or another, but I'm not sure if the .284 has the juice to drop an elk at 1000yrds. I understand its all about shot placement and terminal performance, but is working up a load and putting $2000 in stock and optics worth it or should I step it up into the .30's? Personally, I think it should be ok, but I like to pick as many brains as I can before spending my money. Anyway, fire away and let me know what you guys who have been in the game longer think. thanks.


The stock does nothing for accuracy. If you bed the action to the stock, then you will increase accuracy, if it is done right. So will a custom barrel. A rifle will only shoot what it is capable of shooting. A scope may make it so you can see your target better and have the accurate amount of bullet drop and windage holdover, like the Husky, or G7, or GBP allows, but it won't make a rifle shoot better than it already is capable of shooting. That depends on the bedding job, the truing of the action, the barrel, the load, and even the quality of brass to an extent.

There is a lot more to it than just buying a tactical stock and putting good glass on the rifle.

If your rifle already shoots in the 5s (1/2 MOA at 100 yards), then I wouldn't mess with it, unless it is due for a barrel change. Then I would have it bedded and a custom barrel put on it. If it doesn't shoot that tight, then I would do the same thing to get it there. If you are going to shoot game at 1000 yards, you want an accurate gun.

As far as the capabilites of the 284 at 1000 yards, I would say it could definitely kill an elk, I just don't think it is ideal. Personally at that range and that size of animal, I would look at something that shoots a 300 gr 338 projectile. Great BCs. I use a 338 Lapua and started using a 338 Edge recently, but you wouldn't even have to go that big if you didn't want too. A 300 Win, or 7mm Rem Mag would work too if you didn't want to go to the big 338s.

Sounds like you are passionate about going LR. It is great to shoot further and further as you progress in experience.

Last edited by Lapua guy; 03-09-2011 at 12:49 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-09-2011, 05:43 PM
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Re: .280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

It's probably already been mentioned but you wouldn't gain much by A.I. ing the .284. The .280A.I. will give you more case capacity, and as per our earlier conversation, the .280 Sherman is better yet.......Rich
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  #13  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:46 PM
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Re: .280 AI vs .284 Winchester AI...

A bit late to this post, but I built a 280 AI in 08 or 09 for tactical matches, I've shot both Berger 168s and 180s with GREAT results in a 27 inch Krieger, 1/9 twist. I shoot it at about 3060 with 168s, no pressure signs and about 1 inch groups at 500 yards. (.896 my best averages around 1 -1.2) I can get about 3000 with the 180s as well but its starting to look like max at that point. Standard reamer was used, bullets seated to reach lands and still fit in 700 LA BDL mag and feed great. Super sonic to a mile and about 22 MOA at 1000 yards. I cant say enough about this for long range. Most people never consider heavy bullets with a 280...but they should! Also case life seems forever with just a kiss on the shoulder, less than a thou. and never need to trim after first time.
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