For the record; Fifty has stated facts and figures and a philosophy that closely resembles my own.
Without a clear definition, long range hunting is differnt things to different people.
I'm primarily a predator hunter, many years. I know how far an animal can move, while the bullet is in flight. Unless it is bedded, regardless of the caliber or chambering, you have to consider this factor, especially when talking about a cartridge like a 223.
Responding to questions is always risky. If a guy asks if it's okay to drive the Ortega Highway at 120 miles per hour, what are you going to tell him?
It's been done before?
I think not.
You have to qualify your response; closed course, professional driver, etc.
We know nothing about the man posting the original question. The fact that he asks the question, in the first place, shows that he has limited experience.
I think you have to error on the side of caution, be conservative...watch your back, so to speak. The hero stories should come later, when you are sure of your audience.
I have a few, myself. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] But, it doesn't involve game animals.
I don't have a problem with anything written by Chris, whatever he is comfortable with, is fine by me, but I can't endorse (it) for the general public out there in cyberspace.
Good hunting. LB
edit: in the last sentence, I should have been a little more specific, depending on what the definition of "it" is. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I did not take offense to your statement at all. I was merely offering another side or point of view, that's all.
If you re-read my post I clearly stated that I respect all other's limitations. Whether this guy is capable of a 400 yard shot is up to him. All I said was in the right hands it is doable.
Like you said the question was posed and you answered it from your experience. Well, I did the very same- I answered from my experience. I can and have taken deer at 3-400 yards cleanly with a 223. I have seen deer taken at 1000 with a 243 Ackley. Wouldn't have been my first choice but it was done.
I guess my point is use what you can shoot accurately. I don't give a damn how big your stupid magnum is if you flinch 12 inches when you pull the trigger (not you personally but anybody in general.) The US has caught a BAD case of magnumitis and have forgotten that thousands of game animals have been taken with a 30/30 or a 30-06. If somebody shows the skill and marksmanship to take a deer at 400 with a 25-06 then I tip my hat to him....
Now so we don't cause Len to butter his toast on both sides, how's that saying go- No harm, No foul...
Enjoy your evening.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
A accept your point of view and agree to a point. With the proper bullet placed in the right location, the 223 will certainly harvest deer at 400 yards, as will the 243 AI at 1000 yards.
Your statement that others limitations do not influence your opinion is beside the point.
My arguement is that I have yet to see a 25-06 rifle shoot a long range designed bullet accurately enough for extreme range hunting.
It is a matter of improper bullet used with the incorrect riflign twist.
No matter what the range, the rifle hasto be able to shoot accurately first and formost. This is the most limiting factor with the 25-06 using VLD bullets of 115 grs and larger. They simply are not a real accurate combination.
Just as important as knowing ones personal limitations is knowing the limitations of the equipment they are using.
I do not see a nessesity in having a magnum round for extreme range shooting. In fact for 1000 yard chucking, I prefer my 6mm-284 with its 107 gr MK loaded to 3550 fps. With this load and rifle, I would take shots on deer size game out to 1000 yards with no problems at all because the rifle will easily hold 1/2 moa out to that range in ideal shooting conditions.
That said, for shooting out to 1500 and 2000 yards, we need velocity and high B.C. to keep bullet speed above supersonic levels or there is no chance for accurate shooting. A 223 or 243 or even 25-06 will not drive their heaviest, highest B.C. bullets fast enough to stay super sonic at 2000 yards.
This is where the larger rounds certainly have their place over the smaller rounds, not to mention trying to spot an 80 gr or 105-107 gr bullets impact at +1500 yards is basically impossible whereas a 300 gr, .338" is easily spotted.
Just because a vertain round will deliever a certain bullet on game at a certain distance, doen not mean that it is the correct choice for using at that distance and on a certain size of game.
My opinion is still that using the 223 on deer size game at 400 yards is fool hardy. Hell a 22-250 is head and shoulders above the level of performance that the 223 is and the 22-6mm AI's I have been building make the swift look pretty tame, beating the old speed king by at least 250 fps in same langth barrels.
And with no recoil out of a sporter weight rifle.
This is my point, WHY, use marginal rounds when there are so many better options so easily attainable without going to magnums or even the bigger bore like the 30 and 338 rounds.
Are you telling me the 223 and 243 are fully up to the game taking ability of the 6.5-284 and 6.5-06 AI?
If you are then I fear you are being dishonest with yourself. And anyone can easily shoot these rounds well past 1000 yards with a little practice.
Claims like your 223 stories always throw up the red flags in my mind.
My only question to you is WHY would you select that round. Because you can is not a good reason in my mind.
THe 243 AI can at least be loaded with quality bullets of desent S.D. and very good B.C.'s as well as generate pretty good velocity, the 223 combined with the 75-80 gr VLD bullets are at best sluggish at extended range.
Sure you can hit some impressively distant targets with the little 223 but again, WHY?
Hope you don't take offense to my post, as you said, just my opinion and you have yoursm I jsut do not disagree.
I do agree this is a location foro long range hunters to gather and share information. It is also an area where new shooters learn the basics and hearing an obviously experienced long range hunter say the 223 is as good as anything out to 400 yards is a disservice to them in my opinion.
For the record, I strong feel the 223 is not a long range or even medium game round in any form. In the 224 family alone it is low powered round.
Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.
I have used the 115 Berger VLD's in my rifle with good results.
My Rifle is a el cheapo Ruger Mk-II Varmit/Target model, that I bought back in 1994... I have sent many rounds through it's 26 inch stainless semi heavy bbl... probably over 2000.. The Barrel is probably burned out (throat).
It has a Leupold I bought at the same time, just a 6.5-20x50 AO with 1 inch tube..
I prep my brass...
I have only shot 3 dif bullets out of it's factory 1:10 twist...
Sierra 75 HP's, Nosler 85 BT's, and Berger 115 VLD's...
the 75's will yield me around .75 MOA avg, the 85's will depend on how much velocity... at 3705 fps, they shoot about 1 inch at 100, and 4-5 inches at 300 yrds...
at 3400 fps the 85's shoot about 0.60 to 0.75 inch at 100 and about 2.5 to 2.8 inch at 300.
the 115 VLD Bergers shoot about 1/2 inch (some are 0.75, some down to 0.18) at 100 yrds, and about 1.5 to 2 inch at 300 yrds.
How good I shoot depends on how long I let the barrel cool down... I think I have a bad barrel... I let it cool down 5 min between shots, and it's a 1/2 moa gun, let it cool down 1 min, and it's a 1 moa gun...
Thats 3 shot groups, not 5.. but I have shot 5 shots into .74 inch while waiting around 3 min between shots on a hot day, probably would have donw better if I let it cool down more, but that is just a thought.
I hunt Coyotes, and do not get out much (home improvment eating my time) this past 2 yrs... so have yet to field test the VLD on game.. But the accurcy results are REAL LIFE.. They shoot better than any bullet I shoot... I seat them just touching the lands... that is why I don't load em up to 3200 fps with more powder and pressure..
Walt Berger told (e-mail) me they shoot better touching or into the lands..
I think the 1:10 twist is plenty for the VLD as long as you drive em fast enough...
I use 53.0 of R-22, around 3100 fps.
In my opinion!
I like the 25 bores, not as good bullet selection as the 24 and 26 bores, it's a good compromise..
the 24's seem to lack enough bullet weight to take big game reliably without going into really fast twist, huge overbore un-effcient cases.. the 26's are more efficient, but you need to have a huge magnum case to drive those 129-140's to flat tagectory, that requires a bodybuilderto carry the heavy gun with a huge accurcy effecting brake..
the 25-06 can plow a 115 grn .522 BC bullet at 3100-3200 fps out of a 1:10 twist without a huge heavy gun or brake to save recoil... thats
it's probably the happy medium of the 24 and 26 bore, that is much over seen..
Also, don't worry about if if you can not shoot 1/2 MOA at 400-500 yards..
No man on this earth is strong enough to carry a heavy sturdy 1000-3000 lb bench into the hunting fields so he can get his 1/2 moa.. along with his sandbags, and heavy front pedistal and all that...
a 1 inch bench gun vs a 1/2 inch bench gun out in the field is pretty close to being even.. human movement/error can add enough to even them out in the field.
I have a few portable bench setups, that work great, but do not compare to a permenent concrete bench.. my 2 cents
The 115 bergers shoot best out of a 10 twist rate in my experience and i see no reason the 25-06 is any different as far as accuracy is concerned than any other cartridge based on the 06 case.I personaly prefer the 117 spbt from Sierra due to its very high bc number compared to there other 25 cal bullets as its the highest they offer plus it generaly shoots better in my guns.Dan Hackett used his 25-06 with the 110 Fowlers to bring home several F-Class plaques so the accuracy potential isn't a concern.I just took a California blacktail at 533 yards using the Sierra 117's and 50.5 gr of RE22 with one shot.I was using an ice chest with a roll of brawny paper towels for a front rest as the weeds kept me from going prone.Two years ago the same combination took a little bit bigger buck at 800 yards.I would not recommend pushing a 6/284 to 3550 fps using 105-108 gr bullets especialy if your looking for consistant 1/2 moa accuracy.The sweetspot seems to fall between 3420-3450 fps and alot of guns in this caliber seem to prefer 3200 fps.Randy Dierks from Action Gun Works set the standard in the 6/284 at Raton a couple years back and he was shooting 107's at 3430 fps.That record still stands in the NBRSA 1000 yard records.The berger bullets in my experience tend to explode due to the thin jackets as has already been posted plus they tend to be harder to tune than the Sierras in my experience but if your gun likes them shoot them.