Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics

Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics Applied Ballistics


Reply

115g VLD Berger for deer?

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #8  
Old 08-21-2004, 07:21 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,822
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

What range will you be hunting at?

I ask because is you drive teh 100 gr Ballsitic Tip to full velocities in the 25-06, about 3450 fps or a tick higher, it will shoot flatter then any VLD until the range gets past 400 ro 500 yards.

Most will not use the 25-06 at ranges beyond these except for varmint hunting because its game taking ability really dropps off quick on game the size of deer much past 400 yards.

With a VLD seated just off the lands, you will have a single shot rifle because no factory repeating bolt action, save perhaps teh Rem 700 will have enough length in the Mag box.

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-22-2004, 12:26 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,822
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

LB,

Anytime you go out on a limb and give your opinion on a question like this you will get hammered for it but this is what I have witnessed from using such bullets on game, take it for what you will.

First off, let me say that I would suspect that in a conventional length hunting rifle with a standard 1-10 twist, the 25-06 will not produce enough RPM to stabilize the 115 gr Berger well enough for long range shooting.

YOur 25-06 AI, which is one of my favorite rounds and the reamer I have in the shop that I custom designed is one of my most prized possesions, would be on the fringe of stability with its higher RPM's with the 257 Wby jsut a bit better.

My 257 STW reamer will cut a chamber that will certainly stabilize any 257 bullet on the market but unfortunately is to much of a good thing for the Berger bullets which tend to get a little week under the strain of the 3700 fps that the stw will drive the 115 gr pills easily.

Back to your question.

First off, I feel a 25-06 would not be accurate enough with this bullet for targeting game at ranges past 400 yards and possible even 300 yards. It would depend on each rifle.

Different VLD bullets expand somewhat differently. The Hornady A-Max which I would call a semi-VLD is actually a very fine deer bullet. They expand reliably in a traditional mushroom and hold decent weight on long range impacts from 300 yards to well past 1000 yards if they round is capable of driving them to those ranges with enough velocity tostay stable.

From there, we go to the Sierra Mk bullets which have a thicker jacket then the Hornady or Berger bullets and will handle much higher RMP and velocity then either of the other two.

Problem with these is that they are not great expanders in that they can tend to be a little inconsistant. For this reason, I would recommend using at least a 7mm Sierra MK for game simply because in the event the bullet did not expand propely, there is a larger frontal area and more bullet weight to get the job done.

Large caliber Mk bullets like the 200 gr an dhigher .308 and the 338 300 gr Mk are great game killers at amy range because they are large enough to disrupt alot of tissue even if they expand to a small frontal area and they have a S.D. higher then the heavy big bore african hammers so they penetrate great.

The 115 gr, .257" VLD's on my mind would be better suited for extreme range coyotes and perhaps pronghorn. All are hunted in realitively open country so that they could be able to cove a little ground after a hit and still be observed and found easily.

I could never recommend them for long range hunting in country with any cover where you could loose sight of your target after the hit and loose them because the game will travel farther after the hit with a VLD bullet.

It is my opnion that if you want to hunt game the size of deer at extreme range using VLD bullets, +600 yards, one is far better armed with at least a 7mm using the 168 gr class bullets or the new 175 gr Sierra Mk(looks interesting) or better yet with a 30 cal using the 200 to 230 gr VLD's or the great 240 gr Sierra Mk if you haev any left.

For deer the 338, 300 gr Sierra is alot of bullet but dead is dead and for huntign game such as elk at extreme range, it has few peer in the race.

Richard Graves, who owns Wildcat bullets is making bonded core VLD bullets that he refers to as ULD(Ultra Low Drag) that use rebated boat tails. Using this style of bullet would increase the effectiveness of the smaller calibers using VLD designs on medium size game.

For traditional VLD bullets like the Bergers and Sierra's, I feel there are better hunting bullets that for hunting out to 500 yards make a better choice for deer size game.

For ranges past that, I have to recommend goin gup in caliber and bullet weight to be reliable performers on medium game.

Alright, everyone can hammer me know by telling me how they use their 257 Roberts with VLD's to take deer at 800 yards.

Thats fine, just my experience and what I would tell my customers if asked teh same question. I do not want to give my customers suggestions that will work if everything goes perfectly because in the field it never does and then I have an angry customer at me when things out of my control go wrong.

I tend to go a little more then needed for extreme range hunting and like the big 30's and 338's for such work.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-22-2004, 01:20 PM
LB LB is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 423
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

Excellent analysis, and BTW, you smoked me out.

The gun in question is actually a dual purpose pronghorn/coyote rig. It IS for open country, and I excercise restraint beyond the distances mentioned.

However, within those parameters, and since it is my third one, it really seems to do the job for which it was designed. I'm impressed that you are also fond of the chambering, since it is lightly regarded by some.

Different strokes, etc. but I feel that I get 257 Weatherby performance with twelve grains less powder.

Simply looking at a high BC or high velocity tends to lose sight of the mission. Long range hunting isn't quite the same as target shooting.

Thanks, LB
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-22-2004, 01:21 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Urich, MO
Posts: 838
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

I am not going to hammer on fifty driver, but this is Long Range Hunting and there are a lot of guys on here that have taken game at longer ranges with a lot of different calibers.
Personally I have seen the 25-06 take MO whitetails past the discussed ranges. Seen 'em taken with 223s and 243s at these ranges also. All were one shot kills. The key was conditions were ideal and shot placement was surgical.
Now onto the Berger bullet. I don't feel lack of expansion is a problem with this bullet. Just the exact opposite has been my experience and why I use MKs. From what I have seen the Berger's are too fragile and will "blow up" (I hate that term) on a shoulder shot and not get any penetration at all.
A bullet does not have to expand to kill-you guys are forgetting about the shock wave pushed in front of the bullet. It probably does more damage to tissue than the bullet itself does. I agree an expanded bullet will have a bigger shock wave, but how many of these bonded core bullets or partitions do you think expand when shot out of a magnum at deer at 50 yards? Most pencil through but leave a big exit due to the shock wave. We killed a lot of game since the invention of the rifle without these so called "premium" bullets.
The problem with saying that this bullet expands everytime or this one doesn't or this one is too inconsistent, is no two shots on game are the same. Did it hit bone? Has the deer watered lately or is he a little dehydrated? When did he feed last? What was the angle of the shot? It's not always a perfect 90 degree broadside like a target. Was the animal relaxed or nervous? All of these things effect "terminal ballistics" and will be different in every situation. Studying a bullet's performance on wet paper, clay or water jugs is fine but it's not the real world. Energy figures are fine for an idea but aren't the real world.
What works for me might not work for some or even most. I build rifles for a living and shoot more than the normal hunter does. I know my rifles and my capabilities. I respect others limits and let it go at that. Bottom line is practice and put the bullet where it belongs and I guarantee you there will be backstraps in the freezer.
__________________
Chris Matthews
www.longshotriflesllc.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-22-2004, 03:43 PM
LB LB is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 423
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

Chris, speaking for myself, I can't find fault with your reasoning.

For every guy that says this or that won't work, there will be someone that has a different experience.

There are a lot of things that have been done that can't be duplicated, or recommended for the masses.

Your concept of long range deer hunting may differ from mine, or others. The fact that deer have been killed at twice the distance doesn't matter to me. What others do, and what they use is of little importance to me.

These UBB forums are a means of expressing opinion, none of which are chiseled in granite, or Holy writ.

I do not get on these boards and make statements that some guy somewhere has used a certain bullet at a certain range on a certain animal, therefore, it should be okay for everybody.

I discuss what I believe, based on my personal experience, and make judgements based on those experiences. I bet you do the same.

Good hunting. LB
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-22-2004, 11:27 PM
LB LB is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 423
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

Good advice, above.

A clarification, on my part. I get 3650 with R-22 and the 100 Nosler from this rig, an Ackley. 500 yards is all I care to tackle, confidently. But, in my view, it's good for that.

What I'd like to hear is a comment or two,

(perhaps from fiftydriver)

as to the (potential) game taking ability of that 115VLD from a 1-10 twist, at ranges beyond 500 yards? Or, alternately, hazzard a guess as to the practical limits.

I'm not set up for it, just curious. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] LB
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-23-2004, 04:40 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,822
Re: 115g VLD Berger for deer?

Chris Matthews,

I knew this was coming, just did not know who would be the first to take offense.

The question posed was what I felt the game taking abilty of the 25-06 with the 115 gr Berger VLD was.

I answered the question from what I have witnessed in the field and stand by it.

If one of my customers came in wanting me to build them an extreme range hunting rifle, the 257 caliber rounds would not even come up in conversation if the hunter wanted to use this rifle at ranges past 500 yards.

Why would you select a caliber with such a limitation in bullet selection.

DO I feel the 25-06 is a good hunting round? For deer at 400 yards and under I feel it is perhaps the best. The problem lies in that I have yet to witness a 25-06 shoot any bullet heavier then 100 gr's with any real accuracy. By that I mean averaging less then 1/2 moa.

AVERAGING, not shooting one 3/8" group at 100 yards and then being labeled a sub 1/2 moa rifle.

I feel the 25-06 needs a 1-9 twist to be able to stabilize the 115 gr and higher tipped and VLD designs to produce fine accuracy.

It has nothing at all to do with game taking ability of the round or bullet. Its being able to hit your target accurately at extreme range.

If a rifle would hold 1/2 moa out to 800 yards then by all means use it on deer.

If its a 1 moa rifle with the 115 gr VLD bullets, it has no place being pointed at a game animal at ranges much past 400 yards.

And if your going to build a rifle for the sole purpose of hunting big game at ranges past 500 yards, why would you use such a caliber where even the VLD bullets in the .257 family are pretty weak in B.C. value.

All I said is that the 7mm is a much better caliber for extreme range hunting as is the 6.5mm.

The 30 and 338 rounds are the kings of the hill in game taking ablility.

Also, it is in fact the temperary wound channel that damages the most tissue, not a pre-bullet shock wave. It is the outward shock wave as the bullet speeds through the target that forces the tissue outwardly, not ahead.

If you do a little research about super sonic shock waves dealing with aircraft you will see that there is very little if any forward shock wave created by a supersonic projectile.

Once the bullet slows to sub sonic then you get some but it is lateral displacement of tissue that kill animals.

To be honest, and this is again my opinion, but it is nothing but fool hardy to target deer at 500 yards and farther with a 223.

Can it be done, someone will always try the extreme.

My question is why would you do that when there are so many better options to use.

It is usually because someone wants to try their Highpower rifle out on game. A poor quality idea in my mind.

Again, a answered the question as I have witnessed things and stand by my opinion, you can do and say what you wish as well and I will do the same with my customers. They have yet to be unsatisfied.

Someone hunting deer at 500 yards with a 223 will certainly loose more game then a properly armed long range hunter will.

Kirby Allen(50)
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: 115g VLD Berger for deer?
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
25-06/115g NBT/Retumbo remingtonman_25_06 Reloading 1 09-23-2009 10:39 PM
25-06/115g VLD's/400 yards remingtonman_25_06 Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 4 09-09-2008 01:21 AM
25-06 w/115g Berger VLD's remingtonman_25_06 Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 5 09-03-2008 01:07 PM
95 Berger VLD For Deer dakor Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 7 08-13-2004 11:11 PM
168 Berger VLD ON DEER Tubboy Long Range Hunting & Shooting 3 10-24-2003 02:20 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC