Glad you were amused [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
We're not going to agree on the FFP issue!
As regards NXS and the US units you list, dunno. Never personally worked with any of them. NXS and GSG9? extremely surprised, but dunno either. Brits? S&B. Cdns? ...I haven't worked with them for years; S&B, NXS or Leupold? ....a public photo...you be the judge [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]:
Like I said before, the contracts are in the public domain, that is why I listed a couple for you. Nice pic, just does not change the fact that the Elite of U.S. Military can buy anything they want without puting it up for bid, and when the Elite SOF Operator gets to choose, just like the GSG9, they choose the NXS.
The NXS was not even allowed into the Marine Competition because of political manuevering. However the Special Forces of the Marines including 1st Recon Detachment and S/S from the 4th ME Counter Terrorism Brigade, who have their own budgets all chose the NXS.
Not to mention the AMU who you can call and ask why they chose the NXS and purchased over 100 of them.
Lets not forget the German GSG9's who all shoot NXS scopes instead of buying their own country's products.
And don't forget the elite Canadian SF units that all use NXS scopes even though they are issued the other brand.
Both USO and S&B have won some contracts, but the NXS was not allowed for consideration because of political stunts when they did. The fact remains the the Elite SF units of the Free world use the NXS because their weapons are more accurate with the NXS mounted on them, and the scope is tougher than anything else on the market by a long shot. That is why it is mounted on every Naval Surface Warefare 50 cal. deployed today.
Telling partial truths like the above quote is just plain misleading and inaccurate. Its not about Tactical vs. Hunting. It is about being honest. Telling the whole truth.
Grizz i think your full of crap. and if you are in advertently calling me a liar then i don't take kindly to that.
Starting with GSG9. using the Blaser tactical with an NXS mounted was a stop gap measure when nothing else quite fit the bill, at the time the PMII's still didn't offer the options that they where looking for, and to be honest, i don't think they yet do, but i am working on that.
Going back to the US Marines, according to Maj Boothby they looked at what was currently available on the market and chose the best, and to hell with the cost when they chose the S&B. Currently on the market included the NXS, Leupold and USO and a few others, i have no reason to doubt his word, he is an officer and a gentleman, and a bloody good bloke to boot (hey he is into rugby !!)
Now there are units, who have budgets for buying thier own kit, but as we all know, that will do the job and it costs half the price will always be the deciding factor when it comes to chosing an NXS over the PMII. and lets face it, the NXS is better than anything Leupold has to offer.
what is the reason that rifles are more accurate with an NXS than a PMII ? it is simply because the Mildot reticle in the PMII is twice the bloody thickness than the reticles fitted in the NXS., so it covers more of the damn target, and when you try to shoot small groups, it helps to have a cross in the middle of the reticle that is covers less than what the rifle is capable of shooting in to, Ive seen this on my own 30-06, i put my 3-12x50PMII on it, Mildot reticle , covering 7.5mm @100m. the rifle shoots into around 1/2 inch at 100m, i put the klein reticled 4-16 on it, or a leupold 6.5-20, or an NXS with an NPR2, the rifle shrinks miraculously to 1/4 inch performance.and thats same ammo, same conditions, scope set on 12x.
The S&B PMII, with a mildot ret is a pure military sniping scope, one shot in the right place, or have you ever seen Haji the Horrible stand around long enough for some one to shoot 1/4 MOA groups on him,
S&B have been lagging behind for the last years,lagging behind in reticle options and such features that are desired, ive been telling em that and it took a while to get them to listen, slowly slowly the big wheel is moving, more rets and options are becoming available which is making the S&B more deployable in a LE Sniper role and as a target rifle scope as well as options desired by certain military organisations.
When it comes to budgets, the bean counters are in charge of budgets, and i don't care which military units it is, if they can buy something that will do the job, for the half of the price of the best equipment to do the job, the cheaper option near as always wins.
As far as the S&B's cold weather performance is concerned, ive personaly use the PMII in sub zero temparatures often, ive not heared any complaints from the Royal Marines using thier PMII's in the frozen parts of Norway where they do thier mountain and artic warfare training.
Ive seen and heared of far more cases of failed scopes in the NXS than i have in the PMII's infact the ratio pretty high.
The optical clarity in the S&B is superior to the NXS, the S&B is well capable of taking any abuse and more than the NXS is, the NXS may have more reticle options, but the S&B has 13mils of elevation i 1 turn, optical clarity and rugged performance.
I don't particularly favour the possition of the ret illumination control on the S&B, but the illumination control and the way the ret illuminates is far better than the NXS. The magnification adjustment on the PMII is nicer, as is the eye piece focus, i hate the way the whole rear end of the scope turns on the NXS.
Anyways, if i was in the situation of having to chose either the NXS or the PMII, and i was a military sniper, i'd chose the PMII.
Now if i was a competetive F Class shooter, then i'd pick the NXS for now, but i'd be contacting S&B about what i
wanted. and that would include, thinner reticles, more magnification.
anyway, i don't want to get into a ******* match over scopes, i'll use my PMII's and you use the NXS. Ive used both already and i chose the best of the two.
"Grizz i think your full of crap. and if you are in advertently calling me a liar then i don't take kindly to that."
I don't think your full of crap, I know you are. Simple facts you seem to ignore:
The NXS is more accurate because it controls the erector tube under heavy recoil, something the S&B does not do as well. Cry all you want, its just true. Saying the NXS is more accurate because of the reticle offered is just nonsensical. The S&B subtends not much over 1/4 MOA and you offer that a thinner reticle picks you up a whole 1/4 moa because it is thinner? Hogwash. Back to the real reason, erector tube control under heavy recoil.
Do all the name dropping you want, the fact is the elite units in our country order what they thinks works the best, which is why Naval Special Warfare uses the NXS line of scopes.
" ive seen a bunch of broken NXS's "
"my money, and that or the US, Canadian, British and a fair few others is on the S&B.
You keep lying, I will keep posting contract numbers. It may come as a surprise to you, but there is money in them there contracts! Mr. full of crap.
How is that for inadvertant? yspos
Thanks for pointing out how overpriced the S&B scopes are, this is the truest thing you have said so far.
"When it comes to budgets, the bean counters are in charge of budgets, and i don't care which military units it is, if they can buy something that will do the job, for the half of the price of the best equipment to do the job, the cheaper option near as always wins."
Pete if you had your head up your whatever as far as I did, it would be setting on you shoulders, where it belongs, and you might be able to see straight enough to tell the truth once in a while.
Its a real shame contracts are public in our country, kind
of pisses all over your whiney misleading diatribe. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Waiting for those pics of bunches of broken NXS scopes? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Perhaps the same weak spring that controls the erector tubes of S&B scopes is what you are trying to control your foul language with? Seems your decorum yields to scrutiny as the S&B yields to recoil.....Alas no Nightforce products available to control your foul mouth.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Like i said before, i don't take kindly to bieng called a liar, the guys on this board that know me will testify to the fact that i am a straight up, honest chap, who tells the truth as he sees it and who has enough experience using Military Sniper Optics, fitting and fixing Military Sniper Optics, R&Ding Military Sniper Optics, advising at least 2 of the worlds largest optics companies on matters to do with Military Sniper Optics,(unpaid i may add) to know at least a little bit of what he is talking about.
True I probably knock Leupold and Nightforce more than I should, but hell if folks can't take a ribbing about the kit they are using once in a while, same happens to folks that drive skodas.
7.5mm reticle subtention @100m, mean a possible un noticed error in aiming of double that, the POI disapears and can be anywhere inside that 7.5mm, that means 7.5mm up down left or right, thats about 1/2 moa.
or why do you think target scopes have those thin target reticles in them, ? for absolute precise aiming.
broken scopes, well you ask nightforce for a list of returns to the factory, if they will provide you with that info. I already asked S&B. According to the wholesaler of nightforce here returns run at about 15%. Ive not been given definate figures by S&B, but the whole saler says that the PMII's returns are less than 1%. infact he couldn't tell me when they had had one returned last.
Name dropping.. i wasn't name dropping, i had a beer and a steak with Maj Boothby, Chris Thomas and Andreas Schaefer and a few other guys few weeks ago, they where on thier way to the US Forces Land Expo in Heidelberg. I was on my way to work, I asked Boothby how come they chose the S&B. His answer was they wanted not just the best scope within a certain price,(which would be the NXS) but wanted the best scope, bar none, and to heck with the cost. I figured his answer made perfect sence.
like i said, i'm not interested in a ******* competition, i use the PMII's because i like thier features, they won't let me down and opticaly they are second to none. do i get paid by S&B for promoting thier scopes? no. have they incorporated some of my ideas and designs in their scopes, ? yes. do i sell them, yes, but to be honest, i can make more money on selling NXS's as the mark up margin is more lucrative, and when you compare the price of a PMII to an NXS here, there isn't much difference these days.
also i won't get hung up on erector tubes, one piece tubes, or just plain tubes for that matter.
ive nothing to hide, nothing to lie about and have no advantage from getting on my soap box to preach about the advantages of one kind of scope over another, a fact that doesn't stop me doing just that occasionaly, but hey its a free country.
be carefull who you call a liar Mr Grizz,its not a nice thing to do, makes me wonder what you have for a motive to be so pro NXS and so Anti PMII.