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uso or nf

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Unread 12-19-2003, 03:01 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: France
Posts: 390
Re: uso or nf


(Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions - they were most insightful, and provided a good amount of insight into your unfortunate dealings with USO.)
no problem a forum is a place to show opignions and facts

Only a small number of shooters (and probably far fewer military teams) use USO products due to cost. A custom made item almost always costs more than a mass production item. I think Loopy is the most used because it offers the most bang for the buck - it offers a a lot of capability, great customer service (in the U.S. anyway), good glass, good construction, etc.

I have often contact with military guy and be sure that when compare a cost a small tiny missile as the Stinger , the price of a 2500 USD scope in nothing important .

((Most civilians and almost all military purchasing decisions are based on cost. Why spend $2500 or more on a custom scope (like USO) when a far cheaper mass prodcution item will do the job just fine ))

cost is nothing if you don t link cost to quality , hight price is nothing more than a fashion I have SN10 ( faulty and new ) and some IOR 10x42 and 16x42 the USO is more thantwice as IOR so where is the diffrence in quality ??

(USO's role in the marketplace (as I understand it - I am not an employee) is to provide CUSTOM optics - stuff for the guys who want/need 300 MOA scopes, big objective lenses, etc. Most shooters don't need this level of equipment, but for those that do, there is only one place to go - USO. This is why their catalog has so many different options.)

I agree but only quality is delivery and not just the look

(You recommend that USO start producing scopes on set delivery schedules etc. - this defeats the purpose of being a cutom prodcut provider, and makes them start to compete against the mass market giants like Loopy, S&B, NXS, etc. I don't think there is enough demand for their products (nor desire of manaegment's behalf) to try and compete against the mass market guys - this is not their business model nor strategy.=

making simple is surely not the USO strategy , as small company make a industrial product and hight product that not easy but if the small company wnat to make more malor company with hudge range of model there is two aswer
they are the very best in this world
they just advertissement as WE ARE THE BEST AND WE CAN

((As far as the SN10, if you don't want to add on the extra options (i.e. lit reticle, ergo obj, etc.) you don't have to - just because you have the options doesn't mean you must purchase them - besides, some folks won't buy a scope w/out a lit reticle, other guys won't buy one if it does have one - this way, USO has both bases covered.))

exactly that I say : if you want to beat a challenegr do BETTER and simple and BE ABLE to deliver BETTER Than you challenger I purchase scope not pages of catalog

(Regarding the 50x, two inch tube, 260 MOA, etc. questions, I think the answer to all of those questioons is that they are useful (to a point and everyone has a different opinion of where that point is) in ultra long range shooting. I think 50X is overkill because mirage eats your lunch at long range over 30X or so, but more magnification comes in handy, more MOA's mean more use of your given rounds ballistic curve, and more rand at which you can be accurate. Two inch (that's freakin massive!) tubes and big objectives gather more light and let you use the scope in poor lighting conditions, etc.

as I say in my previous post I am a long shooter and enjoy long shooting
Canyou explain

how you do or how I can do to solve mirage problem with 50 power scope !
how you do to lock and secure a 4 pound scope on a receiver to hold the recoil ( even 8/40 srews seem tinny )
What ammo you use or what range you shoot with 300 moa or even 260 moa except mortar shooting ?

and more .....

In closing, thanks for sharing your experiences with the forum. I hope your dealings with the other companies you listed are more rewarding and less troublesome.

I have since years very very fews problems with guns or optics company that easy to understand than if a company is a real company proud to their product they doesn t want to put customer in troubles so except USO and Lost River all OK for me

strange thing that USO and Lost river seem both product things with so amazing performances but so amazing that seem difficult to get an evidence of these amazing performances

dont forget that long range shooting and making love are two hobbies that can be made by someone in front of their PC screen
[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
but that far better in reality
[img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

good shooting

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Unread 12-19-2003, 09:55 PM
SCL SCL is offline
Bronze Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 69
Re: uso or nf

You wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I have often contact with military guy and be sure that when compare a cost a small tiny missile as the Stinger , the price of a 2500 USD scope in nothing important . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually my friend, cost is a very important issue, at least for the U.S. military and its previous small arms procurement programs. The price of a stinger is a bargain when you consider that that stinger is designed to destroy aircraft valued at million of dollars. TOW missiles are a bargain if they knock out an enemy tank or BMP (which they are designed to do) however, most ifantry company commanders will get their ass chewed up by higher HQS if they started using TOW's against possible sniper hides. This is not to say that his scenario has not happened, but its not very common nor part of accepted army doctrine or SOP.

$2500 for an optical day scope on a .308 SWS is absurd when you can purchase two or three leupolds for that price - not to mention that it is mass produced, has spare parts availablity, etc.

There is a saying throughout the U.S. armed forces - "Always remember that your weapon system was built by the lowest bidder". Cost matters a lot, which is sad, because we should be giving our troops the best gear, rather than the cheapest gear.

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Unread 12-19-2003, 10:36 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 429
Re: uso or nf

Hey DMCI, good to see you on this board. You wouldn't mind it I "permanentally burrowed" one of those rifles of yours would you?? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] I like that stance you have taken on this topic.
see ya
a whisper from this little friend of mine goes a lot way.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 01:33 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington State
Posts: 120
Re: uso or nf


Thanks for the kind words.

My current project is a M70 7mm WSM, McMillan A-5, Lilja 28" three groove 28" 1/10 twist, Jewell 1# Single stage. Optics is Horus Vision/USO Sn-3 3.2-17x44/58 H25 day scope.

Bullets to be tried are 176 Cartarucio VLD, and Barnes 180VLD. MV is a touch over 2800 with VV N165 and F215M or Win LRMP.

Should very interesting with Horus Palm Software and PDA.

Rifle is just off to the coater for Black Teflon.

D. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> Equipment:

Model 70 WSM Controlled Feed Action
7mm WSM - SHORT/FAT case technology
Barnes or Cartarucio Heavy VLD Bullets
Lilja Three Groove Rifle Barrel with 1/10 twist
New McMillan A5 Tactical Stock for M70 Winchester short action.
Pillar Bedding
Jewel Match trigger with 1 pound kit.
Winchester cases w/F215M and WLR Primers and initially at least VV N165 Powder.

and for optics:

The USO SN-3 ERGO 3.2-17x44/58 with 30mm tube and with the Horus H-25 reticle as shown here.

Additional equipment includes:

PALM w/Atrag Software, Weather station, and Leica 1000 yard Range finder.


The 7mm WSM is capable of hurling the 176 Cartarucio VLD or the 180 Barnes VLD bullet (both with BC. roughly .700) at velocities approaching (or possibly exceeding) 2900fps.

My PC based ATRAG1S5 software predicts that when sighted in at 100 yards, this round at 2850fps 176 Cartarucio VLD ) should reach 1000 yards with 25.3 moa of come up or 7.4 MILS. This would be line 7.4 on the Horus reticle.


[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]
People slept peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stood ready to do violence on their behalf. -- George Orwell
We honor and support those men and women who stand ready to do violence on behalf of the United States.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 01:48 AM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: California
Posts: 68
Re: uso or nf


You like the stance of DMCI...

OK what about all the other people who have paid thousands of dollars for scopes that are broken or do not track properly...Read about the failures on Snipers Paradise or Snipershide...There are so many problems with US Optics scopes that it is almost impossible to keep track of.

Not only that, but they have attacked/sued one of the best people in the industry who tried to get them recognized as a Quality Product.

DMCI has had great luck...But many others have not.

Is it worth the risk of $2500 in optics when you spend that much on the rifle...Think about it, the good Rifle builders quarantee there rifles to .5MOA...How many of these rifles fail to meet that standard...When is the last time you heard of someone complaining about a GAP, Cross, NorCal, Hicks etc rifle. They all meet the standards that were stated.

But you routinely hear about the failures of USO.

Its one thing to develop a DEMO model test it, work out the defects and then go into production on it..

But USO is selling Scopes to people who have there lives on the line if it fails. AND THEY FAIL.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong here.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, I WILL NOT DO BUSINESS WITH ANYONE THAT I DO NOT TRUST. How can you trust a company that has had the repititous problems/false statements that have not been corrected.

There own catalogs stated they are made in US, but later on state that they have to go to outside sources for some components, AND SLAM OTHER VENDORS FOR DOING THE SAME THING.

I am not trying to insult any person on this site, I just cant sit quiet when people try to put USO on a pedestal when they have a very poor track record.

If you really want to get my attention, I would like to hear about all the times a Tactical Rifle Match was won with a USO scope compared to a Luppy or Nightforce. Not I spent $$$$ for Optics on my $$$$ rifle.

JBW3 is doing a great job on reviving the USO name but the history of this company has spoken loud and clear. If JBW acknowledges the above issues, then sales would probably outperform production.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 02:44 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: France
Posts: 390
Re: uso or nf


Cost is NOTHING just the final result is VITAL I really don t think that sniper team are use to make Coke can shooting and if the goal is treat selected target you can make more than destroy a tank with less money .

exemple : a good REM 11/87 with nice 0000 buckshot with the good target selected can be solve and save numerous life if CIA and other depts have use a this terrific weapon to clean up "terrorist whith green card " BEFORE The sept 11

one shot can be pay 25 Millions of USD by US governement ( check SADAM special offer ) that make alot 2500 USD scope 25 millions of USD

so price is not concern , but qualiy and reliable tools ARE

good shooting

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Unread 12-20-2003, 08:49 AM
SCL SCL is offline
Bronze Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 69
Re: uso or nf

I am not here to get in a ******* contest, but have you ever served in the U.S. military? How about in a national security or diplomatic position with the the USG? With the Gov't of France?

Guess what - my whole adult career has been spent in these various positions, and I can assure you, costs matter. Most folks think that the goverment can move funds around like an average citizen does with his household budget - guess what folks - it isn't like this at all - thousands (and I nean thousands) of laws, regulations, rules, etc. exist to control the funds of the USG.

The $25 million bounty on Saddam is not part of the military acquisition budget - so that money couldn't be used for scopes even if Rumsfeld wanted to - he would have to get permission from the Congress first.

That $25 million is an incentive for one of Saddam's inner circle to betray him, or have folks who indirectly know of his whereabouts work with the USG.

I agree that quality and reliability are important, but the whole weapons acquisition process is far more political than that. Is the current issue Beretta M9 the most reliable 9mm out there? I don't think so - how about the initial problems with the M16 family - all kinds of reliability problems there and we are still trying to tweak them decades later.

The army of the only world superpower still has a budget and must follow the rules set by congress - and make no mistake, the rules are sometimes very screwed up - we are spending billions of dollars on high dollar weapons systems that have no relevance in the war on terrorism, but cannot stop it because of the political interests at stake. DO we really need a new generation nuclear submarine that was designed to defeat Soviet subs near the end of the cold war?? Congress makes the Navy build ships it doesn't want sometimes, but thats our system. :-(

I think someone from the EU would be particularly sensative to cost issues - the EU as a whole has had declining defense spending since the end of the Cold guys are a generation behind in most battlefield systems and have a host of interoperability issues which makes it difficult for your armies to work in full concert with U.S. forces. You really think cost isn't an issue to the military with declining budgets??

In short - I suggest you study a bit more about things rather than rely on the word of a friend in the miltary, or a guy with military contacts...just my .02

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