Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Long Range Scopes and Other Optics

Long Range Scopes and Other Optics Nightforce Optics


Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 03-19-2006, 04:14 PM
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

I wanted to make a couple of comments as there are many people I'm guessing like myself who post little, but read a lot of the posts of others. So the comments that are made by a few can have an impact on many who never post. On any given area of interest or hobby there are those who are in the know and then the rest who know a lot less and I'll put myself in the latter when it comes to hunting and scopes. I hunt, but not to the degree and certainly not professionally as some of you.

What I find troubling is the focus on the need to spend extraordinary amounts on equipment of diminishing returns. I'm going to speak to you Pete Lincoln, I've been to your website and your a gifted gunsmith and an accomplished hunter and you must be fairly intelligent to work with satellites. You have the ear of S&B as they have adopted some of your suggestions and if I remember corrrectly you have even suggested new reticle designs to them as well. There is no disputing that S&B are fine makers of scopes and its got to fill you with some pride that they consult with and adopt some of your ideas. On the other hand some of your posts sound a like an advertisement for S&B. When I hear you say things like, 'just ask the US Marine Corps' if there not better. I'm not doubting they are better, I have no idea the extreme conditions and testing that they were tested under, and I'm sure given the application S&B justifiably won the contract and I have no problem with the cost difference given the application and environment they will be subjected to. However, lets have a little perspective here Pete when was the last time you jumped out of a C130 at 20,000 feet with an oxygen tank in the dead of night behind enemy lines with a top notch Marine Corp squad? The Marines' application is life and death under ultra harsh conditions on top of that the Marines etc. want these scopes to function for many many years, look at how long the Unertl scopes have been used by the military. However the majority of the rest of us will never need to have this level of perfection and ruggedness for an infrequent hunt. If a person is a professional guide, if someone is hunting ultra dangerous game in Africa, or if you live in a state like Montana and hunt every weekend that the season is open then maybe S&B cost difference is justified. Pete when I hear you say you've had all these other brands such as Leupold fail on you in the field for example vs. S&B which hasn't I'm curious what your doing that you have had so many other non S&B scopes fail? Do you run through the woods deliberately banging these scopes into trees etc. until they fail? Do you take the scope off the rifle and use it as a hammer occasionally? I heard that was done with a US Optics scope and it didn't affect its operation. If Leupold and some of the other manufacturers were as bad as you sometimes portray them, they would be out of business. Yet year after year people take game with these lesser priced scopes, I mean when you take the shot in a Leupold, Weaver, Nikon or Pentax and it results in a good kill dead is dead, is it not? The commmon sense side of me looks at it this way, is it better to make 20% on a $2,000 scope (which is mid range for S&B as some of their scope are over $3k) or 20% on a $500 scope this isnt rocket science or in your case retasking a satellite, now is it? Frankly I dont know the margin on scopes maybe its 30-40%.

I want to make one thing clear I have no problem if someone buys S&B and Pete if your the only dealer on the planet that sells them; I just think it needs to be pointed out that those who dont buy S&B aren't lepers and will have an extreme high probability of taking as much game and doing so reliably etc. as the next guy who has a S&B.
Reply With Quote

Unread 03-19-2006, 04:45 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 309
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

Sir, I do not have "a dog in this fight" but when was the last time you regretting having the best? If you are anti-S&B then get US Optics. I have son who lives for hunting out west. His ATV frequently kills the vertical scope adjustments on Loupies to the point that he thinks they are gargage. I do not sell anything but use the best because they always work. Overbore
Member, Revolutionary War Veterans Association
Reply With Quote
Unread 03-19-2006, 05:49 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska
Posts: 3,740
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

First off I admire fine optics of all sorts and I have no ties to any manufacture or dealer....

Here again "the best" is a very subjective term. I have never regreted buying quality equipment. I have about 7500 bucks tied up in optics alone and only have 2 rifle scopes, 1 range finder, 1 spotting scope and 2 bino's (1 is a cheap $500 pair).

Example: Which is better? The Swarovski LRF or the new Leupold with incline adjustments?

An antelope hunter who hunts virtually flat country needs not a LRF that calculates angles. He needs one that will range ALOOONG way out there.

A sheep hunter who maybe shooting a ram at 750 yards up a 30 degree slope who doesnt know how to calculate angles need an LRF to do the math.

Which is better? Again, that a very subjective term.

Is USO, NF, S&B, Lupy any better than the other? It depends on the needs of the user.

I will agree that Pete often makes others feel substandard when they dont choose S&B. No offense Pete I have bad attitudes too! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
Reply With Quote
Unread 03-19-2006, 09:26 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Land of the hand
Posts: 62
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

Do you run through the woods deliberately banging these scopes into trees until they fail?

[/ QUOTE ] LOL [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
~Pray to God...but swim toward shore~
Reply With Quote
Unread 03-19-2006, 09:52 PM
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 17
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

LOL Good Post. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
Unread 03-20-2006, 04:19 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 723
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

On Target, your thoughts are very legitimate but....

As others say, when did you regret going with the best you could afford?? This does not mean that a non-top-of the line scope is not going to work, but chances of a better one breaking down at the most inconvenient situation are diminished.

Same thing with rifles.....why do so many go with custom rifles? The bullet leaving the muzle is the same one and if it hits the target, the effect is going to be the same. However, when you leave non-ideal situations (i.e shooting at long ranges), the better equipment is goint to guarantee a better result than the average one.

Why do so many go with expensive piccatiny rings or rails? Haven´t other much simpler, lighter and cheaper mounts worked in the past?... yes.. but when you face the trophy of a lifetime ( since as you said and i agree, not everyone is betting his life in a mission) and one hour ago your rifle fell from your shoulder while you were climbing a mountain, you´ll wish you had the strongest and most reliable scope-mounting combination you could afford. I won´t try my scope against a tree trunk but if I´ve traveled xxxx miles, , paid for a 1 week hunt, bought equipment, paid licenses, tags, food, transportation, .... and my scope breaks when hitting a tree or a rock.... I´ve thrown away much more cash than if I had invested in a stronger and more reliable scope.

That said, it is clear that many scope makers offer very good products and I would not say that a specific brand is better than the other one that plainly sucks. But you can see that different scope makers offer different options and maybe one has to choose whatever best fills his needs or wishes.

I like a scope with a metric FFP reticle and metric height and windage adjustment.... and although some as Leupold are starting to offer this in some scopes, it is the european makers who mostly use these features in their products. Swarovsky does not offer - as far as I know- mil-dot based reticles; Zeiss does but their scopes with non-covered turrets such as the 6-24 x 56 and the Conquest line have 2nd FP reticle. This just leaves the SB option in the top brands. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Apart from that, subjective experience has also a strong influence here. I have used and use a Swarovsky scope for years under many different conditions and it has not failed.. but in the past someone in this forum was bitching against the Swarovs. as being weak and breaking down even when mounted on top of moderated recoil rifles. It has not been my case but it does not mean it cannot happen.

Also bear in mind that US made or distributed scopes are going to be much more expensive in Europe and this puts them in a similar price as top european made scopes.
Reply With Quote
Unread 03-20-2006, 09:57 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,410
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

Let's face it, we have people here at different stages of their shooting lives, in varying financial situations, at different interest levels. Some us of old codgers can afford or justify high-end scopes and we like to discuss their use. Pete might not be an old codger, but he has a very strong appreciation for S&B and his background is such that he understands how important top-level equipment is (for survival in military use...). He is an opinionated person, so are many others here and we are all entitled to those thoughts. I happen to have a lesser opinion of S&B, but since Pete explained to me that my eyes are wonky, I understand why I will never appreciate S&B like he does.

I have some spendy glass but I also have Leupold, Bushell and Nikons that are reliable and offer nice optics. Have some old scopes that are pretty sad optically compared to the current stuff, but they still let me hit what I am aiming at. Anybody remember the all-steel Weaver K4 and K6's, or the long tube Redfield 12x with the left-side turret, decades before its time since side parallax turrets are common nowadays.

Hopefully nobody thinks the guys mentioning their high-dollar scopes are looking down on guys who cannot afford them. I remember when a scope was a scope, whether it was a forty dollar Banner or a fancy Scopechief - never knew a thing about turret reliability or accuracy - once I zeroed my rifle three inches hight at one hundred yards that scope was NOT touched.

Every so often I take out one of the oldies and shoot it, just to bring me back to those days when twenty five hundred dollars bought a new car, not a rifle scope [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads for: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Schmidt&Bender dirtboy Long Range Scopes and Other Optics 0 08-21-2010 10:16 PM
Schmidt & Bender LiveEye Long Range Scopes and Other Optics 11 12-06-2007 03:07 PM
3 x 12 Schmidt & Bender SEAHAWK Long Range Scopes and Other Optics 4 10-15-2005 08:52 AM
Schmidt & Bender PMI Gerald89 Long Range Scopes and Other Optics 47 04-02-2005 11:26 AM
Schmidt & Bender PM II Long Range Scopes and Other Optics 2 10-07-2004 05:41 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2015 Long Range Hunting, LLC