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New Nightforce Reticles!

 
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2010, 12:46 AM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

It took me four minutes to open this thread so I figured I might as well put a post in it.

I have an ar-15 I am going to use primarily for predator hunting in the winter where environmental conditions remain pretty much the same....really cold. I don't see myself shooting further than 400 yards for these critters so I figured a velocity reticle in a 2.5-10x nightforce will be perfect. Figured I can shoot paper to verify drops, shoot a couple shots in the area I am going hunting that day to confirm. I might be off an inch at 400yds. I can live with that.

As far as expecting to use a 1000yd velocity reticle. I imagine it would work on a purpose built rig used only in the same enviroment and terrain which is how alot of guys hunt?
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:32 AM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

Quote:
Originally Posted by partisan1911 View Post
It took me four minutes to open this thread so I figured I might as well put a post in it.
What was going on that required the four minutes to open this thread?

Don't want to hijack the thread but have been hearing rumors of this, though I never have. PM me if you wish.

BTW, I agree with your comment regarding reticles. Good luck on your 'cold' hunts.
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

I was surprised to see NF come out with the velocity because it just didn't seem to be their style but at least it made some sense, to me anyway, in that out to 600 yards atmospheric changes don't have a big impact on POI. I would be more comfortable with 500 yards though.

The 1k velocity is really surprising. I just can't see it being at all practical unless verification shots are going to be taken before each shoot, or shot if one is hunting, to get dialed in to all conditions. That is one of the reasons I never could buy into the zeiss z reticles. Once I ran some numbers there was no practical benefit to it.

Am I missing something here?
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  #11  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:49 AM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

Scot,

If you are comfortable adjusting turrets for every shot, even those within 500 yards, and you don't shoot where you might need to quickly go from targeting something at 546 yards to something at 311 yards, there is no advantage in having the velocity (or Horus) reticle. If you need that ability to quickly change from targeting things at different ranges, there is an advantage. It depends on the shooter & how/where they are shooting.

Ron
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:50 AM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
I was surprised to see NF come out with the velocity because it just didn't seem to be their style but at least it made some sense, to me anyway, in that out to 600 yards atmospheric changes don't have a big impact on POI. I would be more comfortable with 500 yards though.

The 1k velocity is really surprising. I just can't see it being at all practical unless verification shots are going to be taken before each shoot, or shot if one is hunting, to get dialed in to all conditions. That is one of the reasons I never could buy into the zeiss z reticles. Once I ran some numbers there was no practical benefit to it.

Am I missing something here?
I agree.

You still have to run these ballistic reticles that aren't based on mil/moa through a ballistic calculator after having double checked your drops experimentially in a certain set of conditions, then programs like Exbal can tell you what yardages the various hash marks will be at. But by the time you do that, what's the point? You're worse off than if just you used a mil/moa reticle in the first place! ...a moa/mil reticle is much more functional for other reasons and you can do the same thing as these ballistic reticles with a moa/mil reticle to begin with!

Exbal has a number of these reticles programmed into it so that you can check where the various hash marks will have you hit in various environmental conditions, if you've confirmed your drops in a certain set of conditions already entered and saved into Exbal--I set up my brothers Leup B&C this way...but the numbers are off quite a bit sometimes from what Leup says they should be to the point that much past 400yds and you could be very likely to not hit that deer.

To just buy one of these reticles that is matched to such and such ballistic curve where, they've got about 10-20 chamberings lumped into one ballistic curve and think that's all you need to do to hit critters that far...! Some will realize the situation, but many likely not.

It bothers me that NF went out to 1k--it bothered me enough that NF did the reticle out to 600 a couple of years ago...I thought they might be a hold out company in this regard for philosophical and ballistic reasons...but now...out to 1K!...hate to say it, but it sure seems like a grab for market share from those 'hunters' who may just not know any better.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:51 AM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buano View Post
Scot,

If you are comfortable adjusting turrets for every shot, even those within 500 yards, and you don't shoot where you might need to quickly go from targeting something at 546 yards to something at 311 yards, there is no advantage in having the velocity (or Horus) reticle. If you need that ability to quickly change from targeting things at different ranges, there is an advantage. It depends on the shooter & how/where they are shooting.

Ron
Buano,
Do you think that's more the case with the mil based Horus reticle vs. the very poplular Leup B&C reticle, for instance?

Edit: I'm just wondering if we may need to 'separate' the mil/moa based reticles from the reticles that are based on yardages such as the B&C and the Velocity, etc., to have a more clear discussion?
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In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?" Thomas Jefferson - Notes on the State of Virginia

www.wildsidesystems.com - Shelter for Your WildSide - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYwgo...&feature=g-upl

Last edited by jmden; 10-27-2010 at 11:01 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2010, 08:16 PM
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Re: New Nightforce Reticles!

Any reticle needs to be correlated to what OUR load does under OUR conditions. This goes for the basic cross-hairs as well as the slightly complex B&C & the complex Horus reticles.

The more "aiming points" a reticle gives us, the more points we have that we need to translate to where that puts our bullet "on target".

Since what needs to be done is largely the same whether we are talking about a simple cross-hair, B&C style reticle or a Horus style reticles, the only functional difference is that the B&C reticle has a marketing plan that oversimplifies what the reticle will do for the hunter. I definitely disagree with the marketing plan.

On my last elk hunt I used a Leupold 3.5-10x50 with a lighted B&C reticle. I chose that rifle/scope combo since my guide told me he had never had a shot at an elk taken at over 300 yards & he told me that in most situations a shooter has 3-5 seconds to take a shot. I zeroed my rifle using the 300 yard point of aim & found I was within 2 inches at 100, 150, 200, and 250 yards. I was dead on at 300 yards. The 400 yard mark was on at 440 yards, the 450 yard mark was on at 485 yards and and the 500 yard mark was on at 530 yards. Knowing that I was very comfortable with any shot out to 550 yards and knew I would not need to adjust my turrets out to 550 yards. Note: that was for My rifle with the load I was using on that hunt. I do not pretend the same holds would work for other loads, with other rifles, under different conditions. Anyone taking the time to "learn" a B&C reticle as I did preparing for this hunt is just as prepared as someone developing a turret chart.

On the same hunt, another hunter showed up with a .270 Weatherby that had been zeroed in lowland Texas & consistantly held tiny groups. When the zero was checked in the mountains of Montana it was shooting tiny groups that were INCHES high. The hunter was shocked at the difference in the point of impact. The issue was not the reticle, but rather the need to know the point of impact for that reticle under hunt conditions.

I believe anyone with ballistics software on a PDA is best-served with a Horus type reticle or simple cross-hairs for most long-range shooting. In either system the shooter ranges a target & estimates the wind, barometric pressure & temperature & translates that to a hold-off or a turret adjustment. With that level of precision measuring your variables, truly long shots are quite predictable. Unless a shooter is measuring all those variables & taking them into account, anything over 600 yards is simply a "Hail Mary". If someone is not measuring all those variables, there will be more error built into his shooting. Because I knew I was not going to be measuring & accounting for all those variables I told the guide I was working with that I wasn't planning on taking any shots past 500 yards even though I knew I might under ideal conditions. (I simply didn't want him planning on me taking extreme shots.) I can say my guide was very impressed that I showed up & could tell him what the B&C reticle translated to with my load in my rifle. I chose the B&C reticle because I believed it would be the fastest reticle for the type of hunt I was planning. I still believe that.

No, there is no reason to segregate reticles into groups before we discuss them as each does the same thing in different ways. With each reticle WE are responsible for knowing where an aiming point will put our bullet. For most hunters there is no need for more than a duplex cross-hair as most hunters should never shoot beyond 250 yards. For long shots where there is "all the time in the world, target turrets & a duplex reticle are great, if more speed is needed a Horus type is a little faster. If more speed is needed & shots will not be extreme, a B&C style reticle is optimal. This is not religion, this is science. We learn what works & stick with it until someone convinces us there is something better. The point is not to believe our reticle will perform magic & relieve us of our responsibility to learn our ballistics.

For what it's worth, on the hunt I was describing I shot a beautiful 6x6 bull high in the Bob Marshall Wilderness of Montana as he was standing broadside to me, with no clue I was present, while I was seated on a rock under a tree all of 9 yards away. I didn't need a scope. I wish I had been carrying my bow & could have used a spear.
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