The R2 reticle in the Nightforce essentially allows the same thing that dialing the turrets do. It's calibrated at 2 MOA between the bars, a BDC reticle is NOT. This is a drawback.
Any cartridge's trajectory with a given bullet is MV and BC dependant, so if you've got a combo that doesn't integrate with the spacing values throughout the B&C reticle, you're essentially screwed.
Swapping the scope for use another cartridge may be your only option, but also, if it does work, swapping to a rifle with a cartridge that won't work out might not BE an option for you...
Temp, BP, MV and target range changes, the R2 will work well with, you're locked in with a BDC reticle and have very little wiggle room.
Versitile is the key word here. The R2 offers the what the BDC reticles can not.
For a higher price? Yes. You must weigh the advantages and disadvantages for your situation, needs, and future needs, upgade cost if it doesn't work out as planned etc, etc.
There is no versitile accurate ranging feature in the new Leupold, which there could have been.
There's 30 MOA of hold over bars in the R2, now this'll get you way out there, and then some. Not even close with the B&C reticle.
It's designed for the short range hunter wanting to step out a bit, really nothing more than that. Perfect for the average shooter, and that's where their market is, so it's understandable they took this aproach...
If the bars in the B&C reticle were at 1 or 2 MOA consistant spacing, most hunters simply would not know what to do with them, the BDC reticle they can relate to.
This does not compare anything but the reticles, the total scope package is another factor in what determines the over all value, another reason the NF is priced as high as it is verses the Leupold.
You not being ready to shell out over a grand for a scope is totally understandable to me, I felt the same exact way at one time myself. Things do change though, eliminating the weaker links with reguard to the accuracy, repeatability and strength of the system may change what many do in their search for advancement in this sport.
Good luck with what you decide. Make a well edjucated decision and YOU will be happy in the end. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Obviously I am a rookie here, but why the disappointment. I am kinda excited about the possibilities. I have shot a Nightforce and it was awesome with the np2 reticle, but am not ready to shell out 1100 for a scope.
This looks like a step up from ballistic plex but not as costly as Nightforce. Please explain what you may consider the obvious drawbacks because I an too inexperienced to see them.
"..Any cartridge's trajectory with a given bullet is MV and BC dependant, so if you've got a combo that doesn't integrate with the spacing values throughout the B&C reticle, you're essentially screwed.."
Howdy-do, Brentmeister.. As usual, I'll take the devil's advocate position.. Being one who has owned both styles of reticle I can't see why it is that you have such loathing for trajectory based reticles.. A quick study of ballistic s/w will reveal that there's not a minute's difference (ballistic pun intended) in a wide variety of bullets out to 500 yards.. And at 600 there's just over a minute difference.. I used a 22-250 50gr VMax(BC .242), 6mmAI 75gr VMax(BC .330) and a .280AI 162gr AMax(BC .625) for comparison.. These are all loads from rifles I have owned and not "guestimated" factory numbers.. Out to 300 yards there's not enough difference to sweat.. At 500 yards the difference in POI is within 4" for all three.. At 600 the difference is a little over a minute with the little 50 grainer falling off and screwing the curve.. (Whatchya gonna shoot at 600 with a 50gr VMax anyhoo.?) The "better BC'd" bullets are still well within a minute of each other.. Easy enough to allow for with a little real field practice..
.. I know we spent a lot of cash on the NF's but truth is they ain't all that and a bag'o'chips.. Mine was not calibrated $1400 worth I can tell ya that for damn sure.. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]
.. These trajectory based reticles are meant for general guidelines and reference points for your average hunter and cartridges.. And IMO will probably still require more practice time than I've seen the "average hunter" is willing to put into this hobby for shooting past 300 yards.. BUT.. I have seen it used to vastly improve the ability and desire of some "average hunters" at my club.. The Burris ballistic plex is starting to be used regularly and most of these guys areshooting 270's and the like (**GASP** [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] How droll) .. I may try one of these Leupold reticles in the near future and I'm confident that it can be as effectively employed as the NP-R2 for my style of huntingwith a proper amount of practice to limited yardages.. For gfetting on out I still prefer clicking.. d:^) JiNC
First let me say, you are correct. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Now I should clarify what I mean by screwed, then each can determine how "screwed" they really are, or are not.
Another thing I should clarify with regaurd to the R2 reticle, is that you WILL or CAN have error at each 100 yard tic mark on it just the same as the other BDC reticles, and it might be even more if you shoot a lower performance cartridge BUT, this is not really a huge issue if it is.
When you have NO clearly understood, calibrated, easy to remember referance tics, and your drop calls for the occasionally ODD MOA hold, the frame of referance is simply a looser one with the other BDC reticles.
This may be fine, and plenty accurate for most every hunter, including myself in most situations. Those like me who think in terms of MOA with every little calculation may simply find the R2 more helpfull and versitile, easier to apply in more situations if you will.
Angled shots especially change the trajectory curve too. If you work from a drop chart and dial the MOA, or use the equivilant holdover, you're still dealing in the same thing, MOA. If an angled shot changes the firing solution from 9 MOA to 6.2 MOA, I know in an instant without even thinking where my hold is, and if the shot has to be taken quick, I'm on the animal and he's dead in what, maybe 5-10 seconds from knowing the solution. If I had to think about the tic spacing of the other BDC reticles, to quickly know the hold, I'D DIAL instead.
I just find the R2 very helpfull, and the other BDC reticles would cause me more confusion and frustration in the end... BUT that's ME. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I would equate this to a scope with turrets calibrated at .3 MOA clicks... It would never work with the way I do things, and I wouldn't waste my time trying to make it work.
Leupold way not targeting guys like me with these reticles, and why should they? They ain't fools, they know where the $$$ is.
What's the rundown on the NF problems you were having?
.. Hey Brent.. No real problems with the NF and I can definitely see the beauty in the NP-R2 for other folks.. But ADD is an ugly thing and there's more confidence for me in being able to see by my turret markings where I'm aiming.. Ya know.? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
.. I'll never say the NF is not a great scope it just isn't worth twice the price of a similar Leupold IMO..
.. As far as calibration I took and measured out some graduations on a 100 yard target that should have matched up with the reticle at the "R" setting.. It was about .25-.375" off as far as I could tell..
.. I had better luck hunting using the reticle at 11x and counting them as 4MOA graduations.. Go figure.. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] JiNC
I've had good luck I guess, and $1150 for mine WAS a hard pill to swallow, so I swap it back and forth on a couple rifles for now.
I've got a VariX III 3.5-10x40 I'll swap you for that 8-32 NF of yours, after all the NF isn't worth twice the price. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Should be close to an even trade, yeah. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Hell, I'll even throw in a Burris 2-7 pistol scope for ya! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]