Thank you for your concise explanation - wish I could do that since I use this stuff all the time. Bottom line is that some individuals (military and L.E. obviously) need this info because it could be life or death, theirs or someone elses.
This is not a tactical site, nor does it serve any purpose for actual tactical shooters. We are devoted to Long Range Hunting - membership ranges from guys who have a fortune invested in toys to guys who are lookiing to make their first purchase of a mildot scope.
Why do hunters possible need dots? One reason, for a very small number of mildot owners, is to ensure a clean kill if their lasers crap out. That is if they can remember the basic numbers and proceedure involved to come to a reasonable range estimation.
Also mildot scopes can give us five additional hold-off points in the field of view, IF we know where in hell they relate to the trajectory of our bullet.
If I was answering the original question I would suggest that Dakor shoot to find out where his bullets strike in relationship to the various dots- there are so many variables involved that I believe shooting is the best way to learn where to hold. Some guys do not have access to big ranges, or safe places to shoot long enough to do that, so computer projections will have to suffice till they do some shooting.
This site works because we try to help each other, sharing info whether it is pretty basic stuff or very involved. We are fortunate to have some great guys here, guys like Bounty Hunter who I have never met but enjoy each of his posts.
Len's rules regarding being civil and courteous are probably as important as the LR stuff being discussed. I will use my Leica 1200 every time, but there is always the chance that its battery will go and knowing how to work the dots might give me a more confident range estimation than just guessing.
I appreciate your taking the time to explain that mil stuff, it served as a refresher to me even tho I have read it and been taught it many times previously.
Practac-- You explain Mil dots like John Kerry explains his position on Iraq.
So there is NO CONFUSION, LISTEN UP.
Both "Mil Radians and "Minutes of Angle" are systems of angular measurement.
There are 6283 Mil Radians in a circle.
There are 21,600 "Minutes" in a circle.
21,600 divided by 6283 equals 3.4378481
One 'Mil' equals 3.437841 'Minutes' ----Not 3.6
Just because the Army chooses to build a reticle that does not conform to the known and defined system of angular measurement, does not change the system or the definitions.
Like you said, "The math does'nt lie."
Most scopes come with True Mil spacing, and Schmidt & Bender, U.S. Optics and Nightforce offer Models with 1/10th Mil clicks. You want to induce .162 Mils of error right from the start? Ridiculous.
If that error is so inconsequential, why do the best scope manufacturers offer that level of click resolution? Try hitting a target at 1,000 yards in a hunting situation with a 4.7 percent ranging error, or holdover error, back to the real world. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Something else u may wanna consider is the location of that reticle-- if it's in the 2nd focal plane of a variable power scope (ranging must be done at a certain magnification), then by changing the magnification the mil spacing changes also-- this allows for a lot of flexibilty in downrange zeroing. But then ranging also changes as well. Just another wrench in the works-- got enuf of those yet??
Now if you Americans would just stick to miliradians you would find the calculations a whole lot easier. you range in meters and kilometers (well your military does) then you fart about reconing back to fractions of inches ior MOA. stay in miliradians and 10th of miliradians. 1/10 miliradian = 1 cm @100m. I have quick hold overs noted (and verified) for each dot in my scope, by holding a little high or low i can hit a mans torsoe every time out to distances way out. the dots as reference marks for hold overs (and unders) are good for quick snap shooting, If possible and time allows i always use the adjustable turrets.
Guy do your selves a favour, convert to meters and miliradians, work out your trajectory in meters, and your hold overs in miliradians,, it is by far the simpler system,
the late Bruce Robinson once wrote me "Pete i totaly agree with you, but don't tell anybody " well Bruce knows i can't keep my mouth shut when preaching on range estimation and the advantages of sticking to miliradians and meters. Pete
Ian M, I agree with you completely and I do understand that this is not a tactical site. I joined this site because it's a LRH site and was searching info that could help in that arena. I appreciate your comments for their clarity and civility.
Antslayer, first of all, I'm very aware of the math, but the reference to the 3.6 MOA was due to the fact that is 1 Mil= 3.6" because 3.438(1.047)=3.6@ 100yds and 1 MOA= 1" @ 100yds then doesn't 3.6"= 3.6MOA? What's disappointing is that rather than asking for an explanation there are those who are more concerned with trying to prove a point. I was merely providing some information to dakor, not looking for a debate on the subject. Oh, and I'll ignore the comment about you comparing my explanation to John Kerry's explanation on Iraq. I posted the thread "Mil-dot debate", take a look at it.
All I saw this weekend was a couple of Blacktail Does. One running away about two yds away and the other crossing the road.
Steve Douglass (USMC)
Experience the best, Judge the rest!!
Experience the best, Judge the rest!!
Sorry, I've been off of Sniper Country and Sniper's Hide for a while.
When did Bruce Robinson pass? I'm very sadden by the news, his Mil-Dot Master will live on forever in the hands of everyone who uses it. I last talked with Bruce in the April/May time frame. He was also a fantastic person to have dinner and hang out with if you ever got the chance which I did on a number of occasions. I always kidded him that he never let go and say good-bye to the 60's or his Leatherman.
His wife LouAnn was very pleasant to talk with on the phone.
Again, I'm sorry to hear that he passed and even more sorry, I've heard about it this late.
What a great guy! [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
[ 10-11-2004: Message edited by: Jeff In TX ]
Distance is not an issue, but the wind will make it interesting!
Pete-- i like messing around with the system-- heck over here if u make a rule, the next thing that happens is someone trys to find a way to break it (sometimes i think that's the basis for technological inovation-- well, some that is).
It is fun to play around with ranging and ballistic reticles tho. It definitely adds a world of flexibility to the system, and fun (for some).
Hey how's the skiing over there by the way?-- used to go up to the Black Forest over there when i was a kid. That was the days of the lace up ski boots, and cable release bindings tho. Man i sure miss the brochen (spelling?) too.