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Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

 
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  #8  
Old 01-21-2012, 10:42 AM
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Re: Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

Bruce,

Thanks for the review! You have my curiosity now. I am curious as to your opinions on other brands as well. As you are not affiliated with anyone, I would like to know what brands you think are good buys and which ones are ones that you could be better by going somewhere else. Also on the upper end scopes like March, S&B, NF, Swaro, Zeiss/Hens, Premier, IOR, USO, ect. I have an extremely hard time seeing optics being that much better or different than the next. What is your opinion on these?

Sorry, I know, thread hijack but since replies arent stacking up, lets just go with the flow.

Sidecar, I agree, I hate buying anything from China but yet, if I am going to pay the higher price for american made then I expect better quality as well. If they arent building as good of products then they dont deserve my business. Besides, what is the difference between buying something made in Germany, I.E. Swaro/Zeiss and buying Chinese? Neither is made in the USA but I bet if you had the chance you would buy a top of the line Zeiss over a Vortex (Razor HD excluded)thats made in the USA. Lets face it, USA producers are money and profit driven and not quality driven. I seriously doubt the good ol USA doesnt have the ability to produce as good or better optics than anyone in the world, fact is we should be able to build better products on any given level with our technology, but if the money isnt in it, they arent interested.
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  #9  
Old 01-21-2012, 11:46 AM
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Re: Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sako7STW View Post
Bruce,

Thanks for the review! You have my curiosity now. I am curious as to your opinions on other brands as well. As you are not affiliated with anyone, I would like to know what brands you think are good buys and which ones are ones that you could be better by going somewhere else. Also on the upper end scopes like March, S&B, NF, Swaro, Zeiss/Hens, Premier, IOR, USO, ect. I have an extremely hard time seeing optics being that much better or different than the next. What is your opinion on these?

Sorry, I know, thread hijack but since replies arent stacking up, lets just go with the flow.

Sidecar, I agree, I hate buying anything from China but yet, if I am going to pay the higher price for american made then I expect better quality as well. If they arent building as good of products then they dont deserve my business. Besides, what is the difference between buying something made in Germany, I.E. Swaro/Zeiss and buying Chinese? Neither is made in the USA but I bet if you had the chance you would buy a top of the line Zeiss over a Vortex (Razor HD excluded)thats made in the USA. Lets face it, USA producers are money and profit driven and not quality driven. I seriously doubt the good ol USA doesnt have the ability to produce as good or better optics than anyone in the world, fact is we should be able to build better products on any given level with our technology, but if the money isnt in it, they arent interested.

unless im mistaken (its been known to happen) no scope is completly usa made. i dont think any glass is polished in the us.

somone correct me if im wrong
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  #10  
Old 01-21-2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

I just looked up the specs on the Hawke Sidewinder 6.5-20x42mm SFP tactical 30mm tube scope. It has MOA adjustments on the turrets and MIL Reticle measurements. It also has no marks to show you how many revolutions you have turned the turrets for long range. You have to remember your adjustments or you have to start counting over. For me this is a hinderence for long range shooting. You also have a shorter distance to your eye when shooting a heavy recoiling rifle also.

I have a 6-24x50mm PST FFP MOA with illumination. The glass looks every bit as good as my buddys $1800 Leupold tactical scope. The PST has the turrets and the reticle measurements the same. MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. Yes the 6-24x50mm PST is almost twice as expensive as the Hawke Sidewinder, but you get twice as much scope for your money. The PST has everything you need for long range hunting and the Hawke Sindwinder DOES NOT. IMHO

Here is a 1,000 yd. target I shot with my hunting rifle (not target rifle) with my 6-24x50mm FFP MOA PST. I needed 27 MOA adjustment so I counted 108 clicks and shot 3 five shot groups in competition. Scores & group sizes are in lower right. A perfect score for each group would be 50 points.

joseph
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Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??-1000-yd.-target.jpg  
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  #11  
Old 01-21-2012, 02:54 PM
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Re: Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

Thanks for the reviews. I wish there was a ranking list from cheapest to most expensive someone could review all the LR scopes and score them on a 10 point or 100 point scale. The Falcon's look really good for the money with FFP on alot of their models. no comments on them huh?
Nimrod
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  #12  
Old 01-21-2012, 03:26 PM
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Re: Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sako7STW View Post
Bruce,

............Sidecar, I agree, I hate buying anything from China but yet, if I am going to pay the higher price for American made then I expect better quality as well. If they aren't building as good of products then they dont deserve my business. Besides, what is the difference between buying something made in Germany, I.E. Swaro/Zeiss and buying Chinese? Neither is made in the USA but I bet if you had the chance you would buy a top of the line Zeiss over a Vortex (Razor HD excluded)thats made in the USA. Lets face it, USA producers are money and profit driven and not quality driven. I seriously doubt the good ol USA doesn't have the ability to produce as good or better optics than anyone in the world, fact is we should be able to build better products on any given level with our technology, but if the money isn't in it, they aren't interested.
I'm going to dissect your reply a bit because your perception of what is occurring in this country is the popular perception whether in fact, it's valid or not remains to be seen....

Thanks to global economies we now exist in a world where, where something is manufactured or more importantly, assembled, has little bearing on quality. In fact, quality products are very much alive and well in this country, both made entirely here and assembled from components sourced worldwide and therein lies the meat of the discussion. If the components sourced or manufactured are not of quality in nature the end product, no matter where it comes from will be second rate.

It has everything to do with money. The playing field isn't level and hasn't been for decades. You can't expect any American based manufacturer paying an equitable wage to their employees and fringe benefits and retirement, to be able to compete one-on-one with a manufacturer that don't ascribe to any of the aforementioned things....and you, as an American citizen expect to be paid an equitable wage plus fringes for your labors, in fact you have to be or you become a member of the growing population on the government dole, but that's another subject and not for this forum.

Optics are very generic in that there are a multitude of manufacturers (and distributors/importers) so pricing becomes even more competitive, especially if that company wants to remain in business. Carl Zeiss is a good example. Zeiss scopes are synonymous with quality and synonymous with price but the sport optics business is a very small part of their overall product line.

The price of a scope/range finder or any product directly reflects the manufacturing cost and the manufacturing cost takes into account everything, including labor (you).

The importer/distributor, importing offshore manufactured optics (or anything else for that matter) don't have the built in overheads, consequently they can sell for less and still make a tidy profit. It is after all, all about making money...... No manufacturing cost (the imported goods are substantially less costly because the base labor is cheap), Very conducive to imported goods tariff levels (thank your government for that) and no physical plant to deal with. An Internet site or retail dealers, some warehouse space and a couple flunky salesmen or a couple heavy chested blondes as eye candy.

As an aside....None of the Vortex scopes are made in this country. The Vipers are Philippine and I believe the Razor is as well. The low cost Vortex optics are (I believe) pure Chinese as are a hundred other brands, some well known.

Most American companies closely guard the origins of their components because it's not expedient to disclose such things. That's considered proprietary information. Personally, in my business, which has nothing to do with this forum or firearms, I'm very plain about my component origins, but thats my choice and I'm a distinct minority.

Finally, companies like Schmidt and Bender, Swaro and Leupold's products cost more because they compensate their employees accordingly. It's the old adage, if you want quality, you are gonna pay for it..... Both at the manufacturing end and at the retail end.

Just keep your personal wages and benefits and retirement in mind when purchasing a product based solely on it's cost and think about the low paid labor and the excessive profits the importer/distributor is making without having to be competitive in the market because the cost of the product in the first place was so low.

Also keep in mind that the majority of optics offered for retail sale aren't made by the company offering them but are made for them by someone else, exceptions to that are Swaro, Zeiss, Huskemaw and S&B, all mainstream manufacturers all expensive and all synonymous for quality and warranty.

Can't speak for US Optics, I'm not familiar with them...

Not trying to scold anyone, just presenting the way it is and I'm as guilty as the next person, though I do have times of remorse about what I purchase....

In the case of the Vortex I just bought, the devil made me do it.....lol
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  #13  
Old 01-21-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph
I just looked up the specs on the Hawke Sidewinder 6.5-20x42mm SFP tactical 30mm tube scope. It has MOA adjustments on the turrets and MIL Reticle measurements. It also has no marks to show you how many revolutions you have turned the turrets for long range. You have to remember your adjustments or you have to start counting over. For me this is a hinderence for long range shooting. You also have a shorter distance to your eye when shooting a heavy recoiling rifle also.

I have a 6-24x50mm PST FFP MOA with illumination. The glass looks every bit as good as my buddys $1800 Leupold tactical scope. The PST has the turrets and the reticle measurements the same. MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. Yes the 6-24x50mm PST is almost twice as expensive as the Hawke Sidewinder, but you get twice as much scope for your money. The PST has everything you need for long range hunting and the Hawke Sindwinder DOES NOT. IMHO
Yes, features are important too. Y'all know your own needs and are capable of comparing features on your own. In this case I'm able to clearly see a difference in optical performance. That's not something most shooters know how to do. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy a PST. Just be aware that you're getting average or even sub-par optics if you buy a scope in that line.

Joseph's target is proof you can make good shots (a bunch of em!) with less than excellent optics. People do it all the time. Why should someone sacrifice features for good optics, or pay extra for features and good optics? Because there are some shots you can't make without good optics, but you can with a SFP scope, or MOA turrets and a mildot reticle, for example. Not convenient, but you can make it work.

Typical examples of a shot that requires good optics: 1) target in shade, surrounded by sunlit terrain, or 2) target in shade, with sun in your face. These are conditions when glare and optical aberrations will prevent you from seeing target details, if you can see the target at all. Things get even worse when the reticle is near the end of the adjustment range (i.e., long range) and magnification is high (>10X).

People often try to compare scopes by looking at high contrast "resolution" targets. I've tried this too and often find little difference between scopes at different price points. That's usually because high contrast targets can be "resolved" with relatively poor optics. To observe differences in optical performance between scopes you need to use low contrast targets under low illumination, and take measurements of black targets with off-axis illumination sources. You need to do resolution tests under conditions of low atmospheric turbulence, like at dawn/dusk or in a lab.

Under bright daytime conditions at the range, most scopes will appear to have similar performance, because target contrast is high, illumination is high, and turbulence limits resolution anyway.
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  #14  
Old 01-21-2012, 07:21 PM
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Re: Hawke Sidewinder Vs Vortex Viper vs Falcon Menace??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42769vette View Post
unless im mistaken (its been known to happen) no scope is completly usa made. i dont think any glass is polished in the us.

somone correct me if im wrong
I'd say you are right. It's about 'world class manufacturing' though that phrase has become a bit worn out as of late.

Far as glass making/polishing here, not sure about mass produced sport optics but specialty glass is alive and well here. One of my neighbors kids makes specialty lenses for a company in California that specializes in astronomical telescopes.
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