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Good Scope Mounting Tools

 
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2013, 11:01 PM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Mudrunner, I had to do the basically the same thing when I got my Wheeler FAT Wrench. At least the T10 bits are easy to find. The 3 mm Allen bits have to be ordered online. If you want one, PM me your address and I'll mail one to you.
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2013, 12:09 AM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner69 View Post
...All of these tools certainly are helpful but for the kind of precision that many on this board strive for - 1000 yards and longer, more precision is necessary. 30 MOA cant work at those ranges . Quickly for perspective, for years I was one of the guys I describe trying to solve my ultra long range issues with load development till I saw something at a range in Texas that some benchrest guys were using (I hunt and shoot tactical/FClass). It made complete sense and it was a complete game changer for how my rifles performed once I got one. I decided instead of explaining, I would show you a quick video I did this afternoon using a rifle that I haven't held it 5 years. Also just a warning, my video skills are subpar at best as is my ability to plainly explain my points but hopefully this short video will be helpful. Again I am only trying to add value and be helpful as many on this board have done for me as I improve my shooting skills and equipment. Enjoy - hopefully.
Gunner,

First, I have to say I like your covered lap pool. That must come in handy during the summers in Texas. Second, nice hardware! Your leveling vise is really nice. Iím envious. The leveling vise I put together is lame by comparison (but it breaks down into pieces small enough to fit in my portable tool box). That said, your video leaves me with more questions than answers.

Iím not clear what the purpose is of leveling the receiver races. Youíre not attaching an anti-cant indicator to the receiver, so why does this even matter? Your video emphasizes the high sensitivity of the spirit level. Can you explain why that alignment step is so important?

Based on the scopes Iíve inspected, Iím confident that most scope manufacturers donít align the reticle to the turret axis with that level of precision. What's the point of aligning the reticle to a plumb line so precisely, when getting the turret axis plumb is really the goal?

Finally, you say that 30 MOA is not precise enough for 1,000 yds and beyond. I guess that depends on the type of shooting youíre doing. For most long-range hunting calibers the aiming error for 1 degree of scope cant at 1,000 yards is only a few inches - even less at high altitude. Scope alignment to within 30 MOA has been adequate in my experience. Target shooting may be a different situation because bullets only have to be supersonic - they donít need to carry enough energy to kill game. But if you're target shooting with a bipod, why would you be concerned about rifle cant? Doesn't the bipod hold the rifle at the same cant angle on every shot? What type of shooting are you doing that needs such highly precise reticle alignment?

Also, Iím not clear how you would reduce scope canting errors to substantially less than 30 MOA in the field. You would need a ground glass spirit level attached to the rifle, and a precisely adjustable bipod. While I wouldnít be surprised to learn that you have them, thatís not the type of equipment most long range shooters would have on a hunting trip. Again, whatís the point of doing the alignment to 1 MOA if you can only hold to within 30 MOA (15 MOA on a really good day)?

That said, the particular rifle you are using in the video has Warne-type rings, which are split down the middle and are left-right symmetric. Assuming the rings are mounted on your Mauser action without any offset, aligning both the scope and receiver to be level will likely result in a properly aligned turret axis. That is a rare situation in my experience, because Warne rings are not very common.
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  #24  
Old 09-09-2013, 04:58 AM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_ventura View Post
Gunner,

First, I have to say I like your covered lap pool. That must come in handy during the summers in Texas. Second, nice hardware! Your leveling vise is really nice. I’m envious. The leveling vise I put together is lame by comparison (but it breaks down into pieces small enough to fit in my portable tool box). That said, your video leaves me with more questions than answers.
Yes it is hot here. It is a very nice piece of equipment. It arrives complete with ground glass ocular level, bearing surface bars and the weighted plumb line. If you want one it can be ordered by emailing acurclevel@gmail.com

I’m not clear what the purpose is of leveling the receiver races. You’re not attaching an anti-cant indicator to the receiver, so why does this even matter? Your video emphasizes the high sensitivity of the spirit level. Can you explain why that alignment step is so important?

Once rifle and scope are aligned you can mount an anti cant to either receiver or scope. I'll have to do another video however to demonstrate why this matters so much. It'll be later this week.

Based on the scopes I’ve inspected, I’m confident that most scope manufacturers don’t align the reticle to the turret axis with that level of precision. What's the point of aligning the reticle to a plumb line so precisely, when getting the turret axis plumb is really the goal?

Most do but non the less the reticle should be plumbed to gravity for true accurate alignment. Not turret tops level.

Finally, you say that 30 MOA is not precise enough for 1,000 yds and beyond. I guess that depends on the type of shooting you’re doing. For most long-range hunting calibers the aiming error for 1 degree of scope cant at 1,000 yards is only a few inches - even less at high altitude. Scope alignment to within 30 MOA has been adequate in my experience. Target shooting may be a different situation because bullets only have to be supersonic - they don’t need to carry enough energy to kill game. But if you're target shooting with a bipod, why would you be concerned about rifle cant? Doesn't the bipod hold the rifle at the same cant angle on every shot? What type of shooting are you doing that needs such highly precise reticle alignment?

Scope/ rifle cant is an insidious killer of accuracy which at long ranges become big misses. At 1000 yards 1 MOA = 10 inches and 1 MIL = 36 inches. Also isn't the purpose of any scope installing tool to eliminate cant to some degree? Article here worth reading Cant Errors - Long range shooting

Also, I’m not clear how you would reduce scope canting errors to substantially less than 30 MOA in the field. You would need a ground glass spirit level attached to the rifle, and a precisely adjustable bipod. While I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that you have them, that’s not the type of equipment most long range shooters would have on a hunting trip. Again, what’s the point of doing the alignment to 1 MOA if you can only hold to within 30 MOA (15 MOA on a really good day)?

If you already have cant introduced into your rifle before you get to the field you simply amplify this issue. Eliminate it from your rig then it's up to the shooter to determine taking a lever shot.

That said, the particular rifle you are using in the video has Warne-type rings, which are split down the middle and are left-right symmetric. Assuming the rings are mounted on your Mauser action without any offset, aligning both the scope and receiver to be level will likely result in a properly aligned turret axis. That is a rare situation in my experience, because Warne rings are not very common.
True

Last edited by gunner69; 09-09-2013 at 07:09 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-09-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_ventura View Post
Gunner,


Based on the scopes Iíve inspected, Iím confident that most scope manufacturers donít align the reticle to the turret axis with that level of precision. What's the point of aligning the reticle to a plumb line so precisely, when getting the turret axis plumb is really the goal?

By the way you are correct. Leupold reticles are often 3 degrees canted. The plub line should alway reference the reticle perfectly. That is what you view aiming at the target and indicates bullet travel/gravity. Turret postion matters zero really. In theory the turrets could be mounted at any angle on the scope.
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  #26  
Old 09-11-2013, 12:26 AM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner69 View Post
Scope/ rifle cant is an insidious killer of accuracy which at long ranges become big misses. At 1000 yards 1 MOA = 10 inches and 1 MIL = 36 inches.
This is a statement about vertical and horizontal aiming error, not canting error. Yes, it is true that an aiming offset of 1 MOA produces an aiming error of 10Ē at 1,000 yds. I donít see how thatís relevant to this discussion, which is about cant error.

Aiming errors due to scope canting are much smaller Ė by about a factor of 100. For most long range hunting calibers, the aiming error at 1,000 yds is roughly 10Ē for 120 MOA (or 2 degrees) of cant angle. You havenít convinced me why anyone actually needs 1 MOA precision when aligning a scope reticle.

Iíve found that aligning the scope to within +/-15 MOA of plumb is routinely possible with a little care. This is the typical accuracy of the HPO Reticle Alignment Tool (itís guaranteed to have an error less than +/-30 MOA). I normally donít use any other levels or plumb lines when I install a scope and anti-cant indicator. In my experience, however, holding the cant error to +/-15 MOA in the field is not easy to do. Holding cant angle to within +/-30 MOA is a more realistic goal. For long range hunting calibers, +/-30 MOA of cant error limits the aiming error to roughly +/-3Ē. Of course, this error will vary depending on the caliber.

The aiming error due to not aligning the scope to the rifle bore is roughly +/-2Ē at 1,000 yds, although it varies a lot from one rifle to another. Using the Reticle Alignment Tool will eliminate this error.

Proper use of an anti-cant indicator will then allow an experienced shooter to achieve an aiming error of less than +/-3Ē at 1,000 yds (neglecting wind effects of course) without a lot of effort. Most long range shooters would be satisfied with this aiming accuracy, given that wind estimation error is usually a bigger problem. While itís possible to get even better accuracy, I think it requires a fair amount of experience aligning scopes and shooting with an anti-cant indicator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner69 View Post
If you already have cant introduced into your rifle before you get to the field you simply amplify this issue. Eliminate it from your rig then it's up to the shooter to determine taking a lever shot.
Most of the shooters on this forum are mainly interested in making the long range shot, not in scope alignment methods. For them preventing canting errors in the field is the primary objective of aligning a scope. Accurate scope alignment is not the end goal for them, it is just the means to the end, and itís really only half of the problem. How one holds the rifle to prevent canting errors in the field is the other half of the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner69 View Post
Leupold reticles are often 3 degrees canted. The plub line should alway reference the reticle perfectly. That is what you view aiming at the target and indicates bullet travel/gravity. Turret postion matters zero really. In theory the turrets could be mounted at any angle on the scope.
This is only true for holding elevation, not dialing elevation. How one deals with a misalignment between the reticle and the turret axes depends a lot on how the scope is being used. For 1,000 yd shots, I think that shooters generally prefer to dial elevation. If there is an angular misalignment between the reticle and the turret axis, and the reticle is plumb during the shot, an aiming error a will be introduced when dialing elevation, but not when holding elevation.

The reason is simple: if the turret axis is not plumb, then dialing elevation also introduces a small windage offset. This is simple geometry and many people, including myself, have confirmed this at the range.

So, my basic rule is: when dialing elevation, align the turret axis; when holding elevation, align the reticle. That way a misalignment between the reticle and the turret axis wonít cause a canting error.
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  #27  
Old 09-11-2013, 12:57 AM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_ventura View Post
So, my basic rule is: when dialing elevation, align the turret axis;
Bruce or woods,
Explain how to "align the turret axis" and confirm alignment in a straightforward, efficient manner - preferably without shooting a bunch of ammo? I've improperly presumed a scope turret would track thru its motion parallel with the reticle. But I understand how the mechanical turret movement could be misaligned with the vertical reticle... which would be quite a disappointment to me.

Could a guy secure his rifle/scope in a rifle vise, draw a long vertical/plumbed line on a piece of cardboard, line the vertical crosshair up on the line and crank the scope turret thru its up and down throws and confirm the crosshair intersection tracks up and down the line drawn on the cardboard? I've performed this procedure on all of my long range rigs in order to calculate the true value of my scope turret clicks, by measuring the distance the crosshairs move divided by the number of scope clicks per 100 yards - for a straightforward, measured determination of inches/click/100 yds.

The crosshair on my 3 long range rigs did track parallel with the plumb/vertical line I'd drawn on a large piece of cardboard at 100 yds. I was confirming my scope's click value, but in doing so, I do remember the crosshair intersection also tracked on or parallel to the line on the cardboard. This test would also uncover any tracking misalignment of the turret axis with the vertical reticle - no? Thought or comments?

Last edited by phorwath; 09-11-2013 at 02:05 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2013, 07:31 AM
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Re: Good Scope Mounting Tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
Bruce or woods,
Explain how to "align the turret axis" and confirm alignment in a straightforward, efficient manner - preferably without shooting a bunch of ammo? I've improperly presumed a scope turret would track thru its motion parallel with the reticle. But I understand how the mechanical turret movement could be misaligned with the vertical reticle... which would be quite a disappointment to me.

Could a guy secure his rifle/scope in a rifle vise, draw a long vertical/plumbed line on a piece of cardboard, line the vertical crosshair up on the line and crank the scope turret thru its up and down throws and confirm the crosshair intersection tracks up and down the line drawn on the cardboard? I've performed this procedure on all of my long range rigs in order to calculate the true value of my scope turret clicks, by measuring the distance the crosshairs move divided by the number of scope clicks per 100 yards - for a straightforward, measured determination of inches/click/100 yds.

The crosshair on my 3 long range rigs did track parallel with the plumb/vertical line I'd drawn on a large piece of cardboard at 100 yds. I was confirming my scope's click value, but in doing so, I do remember the crosshair intersection also tracked on or parallel to the line on the cardboard. This test would also uncover any tracking misalignment of the turret axis with the vertical reticle - no? Thought or comments?

Yes you could do this but think about this: If your rifle in the vice is not perfectly level and you allign your scope properly to a plumb line on a not level rifle - then what happens to your cant in the field if your rifle is then being held level? Answer: your scope is then canted. That is why the relationship between a level rifle and a plumbed reticle is so important. I really am not here to debate this with some on the board - it is fact. Longrange shooters should eliminate these variables so that they can focus on wind, elevation, physical matters of making such difficult shots.
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