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FFP or SFP Please vote

 
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:00 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

Not all FFP reticles are the same, so it would be hard to say yes I like this or like that. To me it is like saying to you prefer Ford or Chevy...a Ford or Chevy what?

I use both but tend to go with FFP when I'm buying, but mine can pull double duty as well. I was viewing deer at over 1600yards the other day with my FFP MK4 @ 20x and had no problem with the open center of the TMR reticle. The floating dot of the IOR MP8 is really nice as well.

The OP needs to look through the scopes he is pondering over and then make a decision. Pick what he thinks is the best for his application.
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  #30  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:07 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
You are more than welcome to come shoot with me anytime. But be warned the scope that may be on my LRKM could be a surprise. You will probably hate it, so bring along a FFP and we will do some field testing.

The fact is the SFP will work equally well at close and far shots. The things that are important to you like having to be on max power or the chance of a mistake I do not feel are really that valid of an issue. I am almost always on max power. If I come off 22x it would be for a close chip shot and even then why would I? If I am spotting for someone and need to call a correction using my reticle I would only be on max power where the reticle is just as or even more efficient than a FFP. Also, my SFP has the advantage to hold 20 MOA in the reticle, if I need more I have the option to back down to 11 X and that 20 now becomes 40 moa. Can't do that with a FFP.

As for your quote that "95% of LR shots are under 1/2 mile" That's 850 yards or so. I think with gaining technology and the love of this LR sport that is becoming less true. Especially for practice purposes. Many are now taking factory rifle to 1000 on a regular basis. Also many , as I, believe in practicing well past where you intent to hunt. This makes the actual shot at a shorter distance easier when you need to do it. This is something Shawn teaches too. So, you jest about us being not being in the 21st century??

I believe in buying as good of equipment as your budget will support. I like this equipment to last and I don't want to out grow it. So if I buy a scope that is better suited for closer distances like you state 1/2 mile, then I could end up wishing I had the better choice down the road as I work my way out to the longer shots. Like I said, the SFP will do both with ease for me, and I prefer it.


I hope this discussion is bringing out some points of operation for both so the OP can decide which is good for him.

Jeff
Hey, I don't hate SFP, as a reminder I still use them on many guns. I just like the features FFP provides for big game hunting and don't find their limitations nearly as big of a deal as you do. I do practice further than I shoot BTW. I was just out back of my house where I have a 125 yard archery target course, getting ready for a late season mule deer hunt. Same applies to rifle hunting. But when I practice LR shots I am choosing rocks the size of the vitals of the animal I am going to be shooting and I center things up just like I would in field conditions.

Like we have discussed on other threads I think a couple important points should be mentioned. 1. I am not as dedicated to the LR game as some are. I know a few guys that will pass up shots because they are too close. For them the trophy is in the shot. And I totally get that but it isn't me. I also don't setup for a LR shot and wait around for something to present itself. Maybe I will have that kind of patience sometime but for now I am way too impatient and enjoy seeing as much country as I can while I am out. I am not going to pass up what I am looking for no matter how close it is. 2. I don't shoot nearly as far as you do.

For my purposes I want a system that allows me to have as perfect of a system as I can for my style of shooting and any shot I will encounter from close range moving targets and all the way out to 1/2 mile or so. So I am not a huge high magnification fan either. I like 3-4 on the low end and 12-16 on the high end, although 20 x or so is fine. I just don't like the narrower field of view, higher mirage, etc. that high power scopes have. I like using the reticle for holdover out to 4-500 yards. I really like holding for wind and dialing distance even on longer shots. I like being able to call hits/misses (especially during practice) with ZERO risk of error. It is a huge aid for me in learning to read the wind better and this is the toughest part of LR shooting. For my parameters the FFP is ideal. If I hunted differently or shot longer distances like you do I would have an SFP scope but I would still miss the FFP features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
Oh, but you are wrong here my friend. I have done it many times. I hunt dark timber for elk too. Plus shot many coyotes while on stand. If I can find and get on a yote, a deer or elk is only easier. Never a problem with the RP-R1. Maybe you should try one and see for yourself? Plus I have never taken a shot at game with the ILL reticle either. To me it is more of a novelty than a necessity.

Jeff
That is interesting. I have used one and had a really hard time seeing it in dark timber and in sage brush areas at dusk/dawn. There is another thread right now about changing from the NRP1 to a new reticle for this exact reason. Different strokes I guess.

I also hope this is helping show both sides of this issue. There are definite positives for both.

You are killing me with the new scope for the LRKM. I am guessing the NF 8-32?

Scot E.
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  #31  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:19 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
You are killing me with the new scope for the LRKM. I am guessing the NF 8-32?

Scot E.
No, I have had those and went back to the 5.5~22. I choose to not talk about it until I have it and do some field testing.

Jeff
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:53 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

Great thread. This horse has been beat before and it will be again. Jeff and I have gone back and forth on this a bit and he almost has me convinced to jump ship from my FFP to SFP. I've been shooting FFP for 10 years now. I'll point out some things that work or don't work for me.
Jeff says he always stays on high power (22) so for him he does not have to worry about changing subtensions on the SFP. For years I always shot on high power but struggled to tighten up my groups till I took the advice of a friend. He told me to turn down my power because on high power you see more movement and more mirage. I listened and instantly shot better and have ever since. When I get out to 1000 I do turn up the power to 18-20 (20 is max for me) but I shoot all my closer shots around 12 power. My subtensions are the same either way and there is no risk of making a mistake. That is my biggest complaint about the SFP is you have to know what your subtensions are every place you turn the power to. On mine I usually am looking through the optic while turning up the power. I always carry it on it's lowest power for quick target acquisition and after the shot retun it to low power and return the turrets to zero.
I do agree that on lower powers I can't even see my hash marks in my FFP. You SFP fans however argue that the reticle is more versatile in SFP but it sounds to me like if you want to use the reticle it has to be on 11 or 22 power or you won't know what the subtensions are. You would have to remember a lot of info to know what they are through the entire power range or have one hell of a chart that would take some serious shooting to figure out.
It really does boil down to the intended use of the optic. For ELR it's a no brainer the NP-R1 is perfect as well as on small game at closer ranges.
For the 1000 and under shooting on big game which I believe is still the vast majority an FFP of your choice (I like the 1 MOA windage subtension models) is the most versatile option around.
The argument about the FFP being backwards and having the reticle get larger as you crank down the power is understandable yet silly. That's what the SFP does. Now if it were possible to keep the crosshair/target relationship the same and somehow pull that off that would be great but that's as likely as the day we all get unlimited tags for all big game and there $1 a tag!
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

I just want to say one more thing then I am done here. I hear all this about risk of holding over wrong due to being on a different power and the reticle not on cue. Well, I have used hold over reticles for years and I can tell you this. For me the confusion of what subtension line to hold on is were the risk comes in with either FFP or SFP. In the heat of the moment it is way more likely to use the wrong line than if you dial in for the shot. And it is said often hunters like this hold over method for the "quick" or "moving" shots. Back when I was using hold over reticles I missed a lot of game by being on the wrong line. These reticles today are even worse as they have more lines than a horny gigolo at a beauty pageant. Since I started dialing for every shot past the zero my success rate has vastly improved. This fall alone we are 13 DRT for 13 shots on big game and dialed every one from 200 to 1285 yards. This is definitely a choose what works for you subject with merit for both sides. But lets be honest about the good and bad points and what really increases the risk of a miss.

Jeff
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  #34  
Old 11-15-2012, 08:40 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

Jeff, I could not agree more with you on dialing for wind. We are on the same page here. However you do use a scope with windage holdover marks as do I. So even though we hardly ever use them they are there as an option. To say it doesn't matter because you don't use them raises the question why not just use a fine duplex? The debate is about what features you prefer when buying a new scope. We like the bells and whistles and both scopes have their goods and bads. I mean no disrespect nor do I think I have any chance of changing your opinion over which you prefer. In fact just the opposite is true. You have all but convinced me to make the switch to SFP. My previous post is just my reasons why I find the decision to be quite difficult. The vast majority of my hunting will be inside 1000 yards. I have started pushing my practice beyond that but until I can afford a custom built 338 or larger cal. I think an FFP just might suit my rifles capabilities better. I'm still not entirely sure of that but it's what's making the most sense in this very dense head of mine. Then again I sure loved looking through that NP-R1 the other day. HMMM........
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:11 PM
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Re: FFP or SFP Please vote

All things being equal . . . clicking is the most accurate, by far! IMNSHO.

0.1 Mil @ 500 yds is 1.8"

0.5 Mil @ any distance is straight forward. Simply bracket the target. Easy to discriminate "as much above as below" dot. As is holding 0.1 Mil over or under a dot. Dots on my scope are 0.2 mils in diameter.

Other than exactly a half mil things get iffy.

I'd click the Mil dot scope but the clicks are 1/8th minute. Way too many clicks to keep track of.....
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