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"Beyond Belief" scope setup question???

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Unread 11-18-2005, 01:32 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Yakima, Washington
Posts: 3,832
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???


If you notice, I said: ďKestrel 3500 weather meter, or something similarĒ. I should have elaborated on this issue because youíre right, you donít have to have all of the features of the 3500. I didnít intend to give somebody the wrong impression or information. There are many units out there that will give you the needed info for less than half of the Kestrel 3500.

I look at this the same way some people look at the ďChrony/OehlerĒ issue. I spend a ton of money to get the best guns I can, and donít want to cut corners. I consider the Kestrels to be top of the line so thatís what I went with. You are absolutely correct in that you donít have to have the humidity or some of the other features.

Iím very particular when it comes to variables in my shooting world. If there is something that I consider to be a variable and isnít fixed and non-changing, and thereís any way humanly possible that I can control that variable, then I want the ability to do so.

Itís the lack of control of all variables that can get you into trouble. If your breathing isnít the same each shot, if you donít have the same position and pressure of your cheekweld every shot, if you donít set up behind the gun at the same angle each shot, if you donít use the same position and pressure for your trigger hand each shot, if you donít control the trigger the same each shot, if you donít pull the gun into your shoulder the same each shot, and on, and on, and on. It can be a never ending list, but itís the finer points that make it really interesting.

To each his own, but this is the reason I donít use cheat sheets for most of my shooting. I want to be mentally assured that I am taking advantage of all available info and data to make my shot. I do carry a very limited and small data sheet at all times in case something should happen with my electronics that will allow me to make most any shot, but if possible, I always use all available data for every occurrence where I dial my scope.

Most of itís actually a mental game that realistically takes place without me even knowing it because itís become an unconscious thing. Some things I make a point of controlling each shot and some things come automatically. If the shot isnít good and something goes wrong, then I go through my extensive list until I can eliminate all that happened right and try to isolate what I did wrong. When I believe I have it figured out, I will then do the shot all over again, concentrating on what I isolated as the problem with the previous shot.

Got a five shot group at 500 yards thatís really nice and tight except for one shot thatís out. Guess why that one shot was out? The gun didnít just decide to put one out to mess with you. You allowed something to be different. Almost all of the time that something was under your control. It might have been something as small as allowing your chest to touch the bench for that shot when you didnít for the others in the group. Your heart can and does move your body around more than some people realize.

<font color="red"> Sounds kind of anal, but if you allow the variables to be different each shot, each shot will be different. </font> This applies from the reloading stages through shot follow through. When that happens you might as well stick to 100 yard shots.
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Unread 11-18-2005, 03:04 PM
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Collin County Texas
Posts: 27
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

Big bore,

that assumes what, 1/4moa clicks? Scopes come in different values although 1/4moa is probably most common. Also the values tend to change a bit out towards the end of travel and if you are needing that must adjustment the difference at the other end can be very significant..
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Unread 11-18-2005, 03:41 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 126
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

To clarify my post about 20 hPa/5C/ 1 click, just in case.

20 hpa/1 click and 5C/2click is not a calculation. It is a fictive result of an imagined calculation.

Start with a standard atmosphere ballistic table. Isolate one and one variable and print. Make a note of the deviations from standard. When complete you have a card that you read first the standard comeup, then read off actual pressure/temp and subtract/add the deviations.

Resulting comeup will be the same as if you put the variables in a computer and have it do the calculations for you.

But this system isn't really a "BDC", it's more a distance indexed target turret with all the clicks intact.
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Unread 11-19-2005, 05:42 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 953
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

once again, thanks for the great info. I love coming home from work and checking this far as the kestrel 3500, I'll check it out. I am the same way as far as buying gear goes. Buy the best first, then you don't have to buy twice.....
so thanks guys, this has been very helpful!! jon
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Unread 11-24-2005, 02:14 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: GF Montana
Posts: 467
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

I agree you have the optimal approach. My main comment was get new guys shooting without giving them sticker shock. You've done a good job of explaining why it's not a simple "beyond briefs" turn and burn of BDC.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 12:45 AM
Posts: n/a
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???

Gentlemen: Not to insult anyoneÖ. But, if you are interested in long range shooting and you would like to get past the guessing games, past the hypothetical thinking, beyond the BS; then come and take my class and get the facts.

If you have a Pro grade firearm, (in a high power caliber) with Pro grade glass, I can teach you in two days, how to shoot accurately at long ranges; and it is much easier than you think.

BDCís work accurately in one environmental condition only. Once the Barometric Pressure changes and the temperature changes, your dope changes. So if you have spent two days zeroing in fifty yard increments from 100 to 1000 yards and your weather system changes, your previously acquired dope is near worthless.

What do you know about Magnus Affect? What do you know about Shadow Effect? What do you know about wind? What do you know about barrels, stocks and scopes? And what do you know about Exbal or Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Targeting Software?

If you want to shoot accurately at long range, you HAVE TO FIRST HAVE a rifle that will shoot 1/4" groups or less at 100 yards.

One last question. To set up the scenario, I once called wind at a match in which the shooter's target was at 500 yards. It was five inches in diameter and the caliber was 22-250. Bullet weight was I think 47 grains. There were two planes of wind; wind #1 was at five o'clock (at the muzzle), and wind #2 at 400 yards, was full value, and right to left at 7mph. When the bullet hit the second wind, what do you think it did?
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Unread 11-25-2005, 11:20 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: on the rifle range in Utah
Posts: 2,704
Re: \"Beyond Belief\" scope setup question???


I agree with your post on the importance of knowing all the different exterior ballistic phenomenon and how critical they become the farther out we shoot. However, just so the beginners here don't get measurement shock, I would have to comment on this quote:
If you want to shoot accurately at long range, you HAVE TO FIRST HAVE a rifle that will shoot 1/4" groups or less at 100 yards.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this is definetly a great scenario, one should not throw his gun away because it doesn't shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards. Often times (especially with vld style bullets) it takes a few football fields for the bullets to settle down a bit. I have one rifle that will not shoot under 3/4" at 100 yards, yet I have dispatched many a vermin out to 1400 yards with this rifle. It will often print 8" groups or better at 1k.

One excellent way for beginners to learn these exterior ballistic principles (besides visiting LRH and taking your class) is to pick up a copy of Robert A. Rinkers book titled, "Understanding firearm ballistics". It is jammed full of great info from basic rules of physics to advanced methods of shot placement and everything inbetween.
It sells for about $25 and is advertised in numerous shooting magazines.
FWIW. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Find it
Range it
Click it
Pull it
Dump it

If it's not far, it's boring.
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