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What hits harder?

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Unread 09-24-2007, 09:35 PM
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A Buffalo that I took with a 500 Linebaugh shooting a 525 grain Flat Point Hard Cast at 1100 FPS for 1176 FPE . One shot and he was done there was blood pumping out of the entrance and exit hole... Thisw is not much Energy when compared to the neray 1 ton wieght of these animals....With the large bore revolvers you can see a visual impact on the Animal with hit

range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot
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Unread 09-24-2007, 10:56 PM
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Anecdotely I have found that a 12 gauge foster slug has planted every deer shot with it immediately. I am convinced of one thing. Breaking both shoulders is the shot of choice to plant a deer where it stands.
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Unread 09-25-2007, 09:22 AM
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First, the computer I'm on won't show most pics (security stuff) I really wish I could see. I have a GOOD idea though.

I am positive you and I are talking about the exact same thing! I use "energy" for lack of a batter term. It's energy that's "crushing and destroying tissue." (well put) I shoot big revolvers also; not nearly as big or as much as you, darn :-( I remember reading something a long time ago about pistol bullets, I think from Kieth, supporting the "wide flat point" of hard cast SWC big-bore pistol bullets (that's all I shoot). It said people who shoot rifles want a bullet that expands, a 243 that expands to double its original caliber is great results; that's 48 caliber and a "wide flat point." Low and behold, that's exactly what you are shooting out of your 475's, not even what you are shooting from your 500, and just a little more than I get out of my 454. What you have in mass(weight) they make up for in velocity. The problem with velocity is it disapears FAST in big animals (don't shoot a bear with the 22-250). I am a big supporter of shooting big animals with big-bore revolvers; I REALLY want to shoot a buffalo with my Casull. Since your bullet is already expanded when it makes contact with the animal (wide flat point) it is immediatly transfering energy (energy dump) into the animal (crushing and destroying tissue) which causes the visual impact to the animal.

Your evidence from pistols proves what I was trying to say and pistols demonstrate it quite well; the shape of a pistol HUNTING bullet transfers the energy (energy dump) into the animal quickly while the weight of the pistol bullets pushes it all the way through the animal (perfect load for the animal).

As I read back through this I appologize if it sounds derogatory or like a flame, IT IS NOT IN ANY WAY MEANT THAT WAY!!! I agree 100% with what you said, I just hope I didn't fail misserably in conveying that.

Teutonic, you're dead balls on. If the animal is within the effective range of a slug (I have NO experience) that's a great choice. It's awful hard for an animal to go far with no front legs. That was also the shot of choice for many moose hunters in Alaska shooting 30-06. A round nose bullet through the shoulders anchored the animal, then they would finish it if necessary when they got up to it.
Genises 27-3: Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison...
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Unread 12-23-2010, 03:09 PM
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Re: What hits harder?

Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor argued about this for at least 50 years. O'Connor claimed the faster bullet (.270 Win) did enough damage, for griz and elk while Keith considered anything smaller than a .338 a varmint round.

Read some of their old stuff, as well as "Game Loads & Practical Ballistics for The North American Hunter" by Bob Hagel. They all contain many pages describing the factors in play.
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Unread 12-23-2010, 04:16 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: What hits harder?

I have always felt that bullet diameter, construction, and velocity are what make a bullet lethal.

-Take a .338 and 7mm bullet at the same speed and the amount of hydrostatic shock from the .338 will be greater along with the energy and wound channel.

-If both bullets are delivering the same energy the 7mm will probably be going faster and cause more shock.

-Arrows (slow) kill by blood loss because they cannot deliver shock like a bullet. A fast moving bullet in the same place will often drop the animal due to shock and then the bleedout occurs rapidly. My oldest son once shot an antelope in the neck Mel Brooks style, and chased it for miles. It got away. With a fast bullet it would not have taken a step.

-Energy dumping is great if you are hunting prairie dogs with bergers or VG's, but shock and tissue destruction are what kills. I have seen two different hunters shoot animals in the brisket just below the heart and both animals were DRT with zero blood loss. Shock from a high velocity projectile stopped the heart both times. The heart was swollen and blue. Wierd eh?

-Elk are not made of steel but a .222 will penetrate 1/4" plate at 200yds. wheras a 45-70 with more energy will not. A .45ACP can't even do it point blank.

-If energy dumping is so fantastic then why are solids used on large African game? Oooops, I hit the buffalo in the shoulder with my Berger bullet and dumped all the energy!

-Take a 180gr berger and 180gr partition and hit an elk in the front leg bone at 500yds and guess which one runs farther?

-put a small bullet hole through an animals heart and it quits working quickly. A lung with a small bullet hole can work pretty good for quite a while.

I think that everything you need to know about bullet lethality can be learned by watching slo-mo ballistic gelatin videos. This vid shows all of the components of bullet lethality in my opinion. Speed, shock, penetration and plenty of wasted energy! YouTube - Triple-Shock X-Bullet
Making a good shot always helps too.

Cool subject!
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Unread 12-23-2010, 09:13 PM
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Re: What hits harder?

That's easy, the 338 hits harder than a 270/7mm. That's assuming equal bullets of equal SD, say a 250 Accubond vs 140/160 Accubond with equal energy. The bigger 338 bullet has more momentum.

But on small "high strung" game like deer or mountain lion, the 270 will kill faster. Some animals are more susceptible to high velocity shock than others. But hell you can kill this type game with a 22 WRM.

If you go up to game that takes some real killing, say elk and bigger, well there is a reason they have minimum caliber laws in Africa. Bigger is better. And a 50 caliber flat nose solid, 65% meplat, kills tough game about as well as anything, unless it's a bigger caliber.

So I'm with jwp475 on big tough critters, big and slow is way more dependable than small and fast.

If I had to chose one bullet and caliber to reliably kill anything short of elephant, it would be a 300 TSX in 375 caliber with a 10 twist at 2700+ fps. Not a great long range load because BC isn't high enough. But a great killer.

Last edited by Varminator 911; 12-23-2010 at 09:50 PM.
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Unread 12-23-2010, 11:01 PM
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Re: What hits harder?

From one who carried a 264 for 25 yrs I can say that when I loaded 160gr round nose they seemed to kill better with less meat damage and were in fact more accurate, as long as I wasnt trying to shoot 600y across the Susquehanna or something. Now admittedly they didnt fly as flat as the 140s I shot a lot or as flat as the 129 I tried. But for sheer killing power the 160 rn were it.

Also they were a much longer bullet so tended to shoot smaller groups at closer ranges( which is not what the 264 was made for). But I tend to agree with your comment about bullet shape having an effect on killing power. Perhaps thats why old cals like the 257 roberts with 117 rn were so deadly on game. On the other hand I cant see my using rn bullets in my 7mm rem mag I recently acquired(again) . But I think if I was gonna hunt grizzlers I'd try to find some kind of RN ammo for it.

Ballistics and physics is wonderful sciences, but on game it just aint everything...

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