Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Hunting > Long Range Hunting & Shooting

Long Range Hunting & Shooting Nightforce Optics


Reply

What do you think of this???

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 09-02-2009, 06:56 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 219
Re: What do you think of this???

That is a tough call for sure. I can see it from both sides.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-02-2009, 08:42 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sagauache County, Co...3170 sq miles, not a single stop light!
Posts: 667
Re: What do you think of this???

Entrapment with a capital E..... MFWP should be called on the carpet for this by every sportsmans association in the state.The officer involved should be busted down to the lowest possible rank, or better yet fired. This case sounds very similar to a case yrs ago against a sheep hunter who bought the governors tag for the state of oregon. I remember reading about it in one of the major outdoor magazines. it was a case of over -zelous federal fish and wildlife agents who planted a snitch in the camp of the hunter and tried to get him to do something illegal, such as kill a sheep that was in another area, in another state, etc...the hunter was such a stand up guy that he killed an old one-horned ram that would not have made it thru another winter after spending over 100 grand on the tag. they still arrested him on bogus charges and harrassed his whole family.

Dont think these types are not in law inforcement also......Does the name Randy Weaver ring a bell? AJ
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-02-2009, 09:46 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 149
Re: What do you think of this???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Couple of questions...

Do you know all the facts in this case? And if not, just how much about it do you know or think you know?

You said, "What makes MFWP above the law?"... "They have committed a more serious crime than what the "criminals" have been charged with." Can you explain what more serious crime they have committed than what they are charging the other guys with? Or.. any crime at all? I mean actual on the book crimes, not your subjective estimation of a crime.

Do you know for a certain, that these agents lives were not at risk if they refused to make a killing shot the third time? If so, I guess you must have been rigth there with them.

Rushing to judgement?... making conclusions without all the facts?.... hmmmm...

You're kidding, right? If this hunt was illegal...the MFWP agent is the one who POACHED the sheep! That in itself is worth $30,000 in restitution. These 'agents' are not forced to do these jobs, they know they might run into some tough situations. If they can't handle it and do the right thing they should go back to working at Wal-Mart.

Many people have dealt with the Fish and Game. I had dealings with them in Idaho when someone poached a deer on our property in the middle of the night...let me just say we will NEVER call Fish and Game again! To say they are the all-knowing and a model law enforcement agency is a joke.


dogdinger, Randy Weaver came to my mind too.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:30 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,654
Re: What do you think of this???

The first thought that intered my mind about the agent shooting the ram, was well maybe his life would have been in danger and his life is worth far more than the rams atleast to me. Just think though, how would we feel if an under cover cop had to snort several lines of cocain he would still be in violation of the law wouldn't he? This is a hard one to judge without all the facts.

The sad thing is the fact that many folks will have lost their respect and trust for the Fish and Game officers .
__________________
"Molon Labe"
IN DIXIE WE DON"T CALL 911 !
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-02-2009, 12:59 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sparks, Nevada
Posts: 162
Re: What do you think of this???

To those siding with the fwp.. Really? You are quick to jump to the aide of the fwp siting that he "missed on purpose" and that "His life might have been in danger" Come on. I dont know the facts and neither do you. Whos to say he wasnt just a crappy shot? To the idea his life might have been in danger I call total and utter BS.. He was armed!! If the guy who had already stated he couldnt take money from him because he wasnt a guide was going to kill the cop because he didnt shoot the ram then he seems to be much more of a criminal than has been addressed. And if he is this type of criminal than why did he need the officer in the first place.. He would have just gone out and shot the ram himself and saved himself the 5k he spent to buy it from the fwp cop..

I agree with those that smell entrapment.. I know I dont have all the facts but uncommon sense tells me that this guy was trapped.. As far as what crimes the fwp committed umm hello the guy crossed private property and then killed a ram knowingly having an illegal "guide" show him the way..

One question I have about this case is this. What is the difference from what this guy is accused of to what lots of us do.. We get a call from a buddy and then help him scout the animals and then assist him with his hunt. Then when its over we help him pack out.. And some guys would even be willing to buy the trophy to put in their lodge or there home.. So why is what he did allegedly illegal?

Also the trespassing charges could be dropped if the landowner decided not to press charges..

There are just lots of holes to this story but from what I read I have to agree with the author that the damn cop is more to blame than anyone.. Total abuse of power.. So this is my opinion take it for what its worth.. I am not trying to call anyone out or start anything just expressing my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-02-2009, 08:26 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
Posts: 5,953
Re: What do you think of this???

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylilcuss View Post
To those siding with the fwp.. Really? You are quick to jump to the aide of the fwp siting that he "missed on purpose" and that "His life might have been in danger" Come on. I dont know the facts and neither do you. Whos to say he wasnt just a crappy shot? To the idea his life might have been in danger I call total and utter BS.. He was armed!! If the guy who had already stated he couldnt take money from him because he wasnt a guide was going to kill the cop because he didnt shoot the ram then he seems to be much more of a criminal than has been addressed. And if he is this type of criminal than why did he need the officer in the first place.. He would have just gone out and shot the ram himself and saved himself the 5k he spent to buy it from the fwp cop..
You need to read people's posts more carefully. Who in this thread is siding with the MWFP??? Let me repeat myself.... there is nowhere near enough information in this article to come to any informed conclusion at all. So therefore let me make this very clear... I am neither siding with or against the MFWP... understood? What I am doing is countering a lot of judgement and opinions based on just about absolutley no information, which IME is very foolish. Ths is why we have trials in our justice system... so all the facts can be studied to come to an INFORMED conclusion. Nothing like judging based on ignorance.

Next... are you aware that being a game warden, especially an undercover agent, is one of the most dangerous jobs there is? Many game wardens have been relocated and given new identities as a result of their work and results. I think it is a little more than ridiculous for you to be sittting at your keyboard, throwing the BS flag at the possibility of this guy's life being in danger. Do you know any of these guys??? Here he is out in the midle of nowhere - have you ever been in the breaks? It is a massive wasteland as big or bigger than a lot of states, with almost no roads, broken with canyons, draws, washes and coulees. If a person wanted to dispose of a body, the breaks would be a good place to do it. Ok, so he was armed... and out numbered 3 to 1... guess he should have got into a firefight so a trophy bighorn didn't get killed. What happens if he refuses to shoot the ram? First, a three year investigation, costing many thousands of dollars goes down the tubes, because the "suspects" will surely know something is amiss. Next, he may end up in a shootout and people may die, including himself. Do you know anything about LE training, especially undercover? Did you read this part of the article?

[According to documents, “It was clear that J. G. must shoot the ram, which was now in close proximity to the hunters, or reveal his true identity.” ]

If in the line of duty this guy shoots a sheep to preserve a three year investigaion and possibly avoid bloodshed I *think* he is well within the law of doing so. Do officers break the law when they speed to catch a traffic violator or criminal. If someone's wife went into intense labor, would the husband be charged with speeding if he sped to get to the hospital? Would you like some more scenarios?

Quote:
I agree with those that smell entrapment.. I know I dont have all the facts but uncommon sense tells me that this guy was trapped.. As far as what crimes the fwp committed umm hello the guy crossed private property and then killed a ram knowingly having an illegal "guide" show him the way..
If you want to agree with the "smell of entrapment", that's fine. As you freely admit, YOU DONT HAVE ALL THE FACTS. But... I personally will leave my "uncommon sense in the closet and wait until I understand the facts and the law better before jumping to conclusions. Maybe it was entrapment and maybe it wasn't. As far as tresspassing... once again, I don't know enough (and I think neither do you or the author of the article who showed himself ignorant about quite a few things) about Montana tresspass laws and what leeway this agent was given to to accomplish his mission to make a judgement on that. That will surely come out in the trial, but it seems that many are too impatient to wait for the justice system work. Let's just lynch 'em. I think a lot of people beleive there was entrapment because of the SLANT of the article which was about 95% opinion and 5% fact. C'mon guys, dont be so easily duped or biased by previous experiences with F&G. Wait for the factas and then make a call. I was once given the bennifit of doubt by some MFWP officers when they could have easily hung me out to dry. They looked at the circumstantial evidence in the field and decided it was an honest mistake. So they aren't always the cold hearted, evil, try to make a bust jerks that some make them out to be. Yeah there are, and are going to be few bad apples.


Quote:
One question I have about this case is this. What is the difference from what this guy is accused of to what lots of us do.. We get a call from a buddy and then help him scout the animals and then assist him with his hunt. Then when its over we help him pack out.. And some guys would even be willing to buy the trophy to put in their lodge or there home.. So why is what he did allegedly illegal?
Not sure what argument you are making here??? Two wrongs make a right? So far in this article, the only thing wrong these guys did was to tresspass and apparently illegally possess AND sell a game animal (remember the $5000 payment for the ram?) There is of course nothing wrong with going out with a buddy to help him hunt and retrieve game as long as you do it within the law.

Quote:
Also the trespassing charges could be dropped if the landowner decided not to press charges..
Once again, I really doubt if you know enough about Montana law to make this statement.

Quote:
There are just lots of holes to this story

Exactley!!! So why are you making any judgement at all???

Quote:
But from what I read I have to agree with the author that the damn cop is more to blame than anyone..
Ignorance and prejudice love company....

Quote:
Total abuse of power..
Quote:
So this is my opinion take it for what its worth.. I am not trying to call anyone out or start anything just expressing my opinion.
You make an aweful lot of accustions and judgements to make a statement like this...

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberbeast7 View Post
You're kidding, right? If this hunt was illegal...the MFWP agent is the one who POACHED the sheep! That in itself is worth $30,000 in restitution. These 'agents' are not forced to do these jobs, they know they might run into some tough situations. If they can't handle it and do the right thing they should go back to working at Wal-Mart.
No... I'm not kidding... Are you??? So I guess, once agian you know all the facts and the law in this matter. See my above reply to happylilcus. POACHED??? By the agent??? Your argument is very flawed... you imply that since they know the risk they should take undue risk... again, read my reply to previous. So you are saying they should intentionally risk life to preserve the life of a ram, so you can have the opportunity to shoot that ram and hang it on your wall or go work at Wal Mart?????? Wow............

Quote:
Many people have dealt with the Fish and Game. I had dealings with them in Idaho when someone poached a deer on our property in the middle of the night...let me just say we will NEVER call Fish and Game again! To say they are the all-knowing and a model law enforcement agency is a joke.
So you had dealings with F&G that didn't turn out to your bennifit and that gives you license to mnake a judgenent in this case even though you know just about zip about it. Cut me a break. And who in this thread has implied that MFWP is an "all-knowing and model law enforcement agency"? Go back and reread my post.

Quote:
dogdinger, Randy Weaver came to my mind too.
Personally, I'll wiat until the results of the trial before I think of Randy Weaver, just like I would wait until the results of the trial before passing judgement on you if the papers came out with stories about you being a sex offender. You're welcome.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuck View Post
Just think though, how would we feel if an under cover cop had to snort several lines of cocain he would still be in violation of the law wouldn't he?
It doesn't matter how we would feel... obviously there are a lot of different feelings about this case. What matter's is the law and the results of the trial.

Quote:
This is a hard one to judge without all the facts.
Amen...

Quote:
The sad thing is the fact that many folks will have lost their respect and trust for the Fish and Game officers .

Uhhhh.... only if they allowed themselves to be influenced by a very subjective article, past experiences and prejudice, or... if the trial shows the agent acted wrongly..... In that case, I wont judge other officers based on this officer's actions, just like I wont judge you based on someone elses actions. You're welcome.

-MR

Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 09-02-2009 at 08:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:35 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: OK
Posts: 2,145
Re: What do you think of this???

MR, please, your lecturing on some of the guys speculating, while you're speculating as well. I am by no means wanting a ******* contest here, but please consider the following.

article stated;
"According to court documents, the investigation began in 2005, and was seeded in the fact that Lewton was “with a number of bighorn sheep tag holders in Montana during the last 10 to 15 years when they were hunting for bighorn sheep.” His continued proximity presumably helped arouse suspicion that he was outfitting without a license."

This leads anyone reading the article to believe that the only resonable suspicion the dept. had was outfitting without a lic. So now the officer needs to gather probable cause to make an arrest.

2 choices to get this evidence;
1. Contact the sheep tag holder of the past 10-15 years and get testimonial evidence against the suspect. If they don't talk offer imunity, or a "reward" for tipping off a violator.
2. Shadow suspect until he violates again, when the officer made initial contact, the suspect stated he was doing a fly by for another hunter. Watch wait and arrest on that violation.

Was it necessary to hire the suspect and kill a ram? NO. Was it the easiest way? may-be may-be not. Had the dept. investigated past outfitting suspicions they may have procurred enough evidence for an arrest and interogation, which may have netted a confession. not that they would need it if 5 past clients testified against him.

Were they trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? I'm sure they were, does an arrest for outfitting without a lic. justify the killing of that sheep? NO

If the evidence of any of this "investigation" is determined by the judge to be inadmisable, by the way of entrapment or cohersion, The result will be that the more serious charges of the sale of the animal will likly be dismissed due to "poison fruit" Had they attacked the case from a different angle I'm sure that a more sutible result would have been the outcome.


Nowhere is it stated that the suspect was, or is believed to be a poacher, If there was evidence from past events, it would be easy to obtain. Not many poachers shoot a record class animal, and do not either sell for profit, or brag it up as their legal kill. One trip thru his trophy room and the records of his past sheep tags would prove wrongdoing of the sort had it ever occured. And I am sure after his arrest fish and game searched everything the man has ever owned, and had there been any evidence of such he would be up on those charges as well.

Is this guy guilty? most likly.
Will he be convicted? good question, wait and see.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC