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What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

 
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  #43  
Old 04-23-2011, 11:13 PM
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Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

OK Long Time Long Ranger, you've fallen off your meds and I can't let it stand alone. Some kid might run into your previous post and believe it. If you're talking extreme ranges (>1k) I'll not argue that the 7mm's probably aren't the tool for the job, although, I don't think that a 300 Winchester is either.

"The 7mm remington is not even in the same league as the 300 winchester at long range large big game."-LTLR

- To say that the 7mm Remington Magnum is not in the same league as a 300 Winchester is like saying that a Honda Accord is not even in the same league as a Toyota Camry. I would challenge that damn few shots that can be accomplished with a 300 Winchester can't be made with a 7mm Remington Magnum and it's very difficult to pick out a place on an elk where you can tell me that a 300 Winchester will kill it and a 7mm Remington won't.

"The 7mm remington does not shoot the 180 and 200 grain bullets fast enough to make it a super long range rifle on elk size game. It can do it with a perfect shot but why not get a cartridge better suited for the purpose."-LTLR

- Damn few shots are perfect and yet 1000's of elk per year are killed with 7mm Remington's, not all of them are perfect shots.

"The 300 winchester can shoot quality big game bullets with BC's in the .6's at 3200 fps."-LTLR

- It takes an exceptional 300 Winchester to push a 180 gr. bullet to 3200 fps and unless you're speaking of the Cutting Edge Bullets, nobody else sells a 0.6 BC bullet that a 300 Winchester is even going to get close to 3200 fps.

"That is why for long range hunting the 264, 30 and 338 calibers have an edge on the other calibers. Good quality premium hunting bullets with high BC's give these calibers an edge."-LTLR

- You purposely skipped over the 7mm, which has plenty of the high BC bullets in its caliber to praise both sides of it. When it comes to the 30's, the Cutting Edge bullets do seem to have something to offer, but 30 caliber in general doesn't offer much, if any advantage when it comes to ballistic coefficients. I won't argue that the 338's have high BCs. 338's are beasts. Very few people can withstand multiple shots with a big 30 without a muzzlebreak and even fewer can withstand many of the big 338's without a muzzlebreak. Muzzlebreaks bring their own troubles. Some kick up dirt and most of them make your ears ring for hours. Big 7's will kill elk at long ranges (<1k) without a muzzlebreak.

Cross
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  #44  
Old 04-24-2011, 12:49 AM
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Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

The 300 winchester will shoot a 177 grain GS bullet with a .638 BC 3200 fps. I have two that will in a 26" barrel. A 7mm remington can not compete with that with a premium big game bullet that I am aware of. The 300 winchester has the velocity at long range to drive this bullet through an elk and kill it at angles the 7mm may not because there are no high bc premium hunting bullets available for the 7mm remington that it can drive fast enough to do so. The 168 berger and 162 amax are about the best thing ballistically in 7mm remington for it's kill range and they do not get near the 300 winchester with the 177 GS bullet. Neither are designed to drive through bone and tough muscle of a large bull elk at angle. Fragmenting bullets do not do this. The 300 winchester with available bullets is in a league beyond the 7mm remington when it comes to long range elk hunting. It will kill elk with shots the 7mm remington can't.

1000's of elk are killed with the 7mm remington each year. Unfortunately bears eat many of them because they are lost to the hunter. The 7mm remington is not a good performer on elk at long range when you do not have a good broadside shot and a good shooter capable of a high shoulder shot. Double lung shots are even risky with the 7mm remington at long range because the bullets that get you there will either splatter on a rib or pencil hole through without enough velocity for expansion and the elk runs for miles. At average distances most hunters take elk you can use a good quality premium hunting bullet and make a good elk rifle.

I have over twenty 7mm rifles in many cartridges and I want to know where these super long range premium hunting bullets are in 7mm. I need them. Like I said for caribou, deer and antelope I use the bergers and amax. But for long range elk I have none that I can depend on that will not fragment. bottom line the 7mm remington is not a good choice for long range elk. Like I said it will kill one under the right circumstances but the odds are not good. I hope to goodness kids and everyone else is reading this and understands clearly the 7mm remington is not a good choice for long range elk. If you plan to do so please get an elk rifle or shoot your 7mm remington within a fair range for this cartridge using premium quality hunting bullets.

I think this will answer most of your quoting me.

Now for the ones that think this thread is silly or funny.

I live in the best trophy elk unit in Wyoming. I have lived in several western states and hunted and guided for elk for nearly 40 years seeing 100's shot. As residents we get to draw this tag on average about 3-4 times in twenty years. It makes me mad as he!! to see all these nonresidents and inexperienced resident hunters bringing their 7mm remingtons out here with their 168 Berger bullets thinking they can kill an elk as far as they can see it because they saw it on TV and other inexperienced people tell them it is great on forums. On many occasions these people have got into this premium area and killed several bulls with this set up and may or may not have found one to carry home with them. Through the years I have known of many numbers of elk wounded and lost to the 7mm trying to go long range on elk where it does not belong. I tried to say this nicely in my previous post. It is not silly or funny to me to see year after year all these bulls lost to hunters who are not prepared with the proper equipment or knowledge to shoot elk. Elk are lost to all calibers but the problem is exponential with the smaller calibers. Maybe we could draw tags with much greater regularity if we didn't have so much wounding loss with people trying to shoot elk long range without the proper equipment.

It is just not funny to me losing these big bulls and yes there is quite a difference when shooting elk with a large caliber rifle. If you can't stand the recoil then get the proper bullet and shoot your 7mm remington within the ranges where those bullets are effective and you can place the bullet dead on where it should go. Like I said before large bull elk can go a long way with a marginal hit with a small caliber rifle. Large caliber heavy bullets can give you a much better chance of retrieving your elk. Whether it is a marginal hit or having to drive it through tough muscle and bone on an angle the 7mm remington can not handle long range.

I have killed elk with the 7mm's and about every other caliber. I have many friends and guided many that kill elk every year with lesser cartridges than the 7mm remington. Magnum rifles are not even necessary to kill elk effectively. I can take a 308 winchester and kill elk effectively. All this assumes the proper bullet is used and the shots kept within the proper distances and angles these rifles are capable. That is my point and again the 7mm remington is not a long range elk rifle when there are to many good ones available. I know it is popular and sponsors on here use it and tv shows are made using it. With the right situation it will kill an elk as dead as anything at long range. But in the process many elk will also be lost to it and die never being found that would have been retrieved with a better choice for long range elk.

I am not on here to make people mad and I respect everyones opinion. But I am going to state what I have learned through many years of long range elk hunting to help anyone coming into the sport make the proper choice for the animals they plan to hunt long range.
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  #45  
Old 04-24-2011, 01:29 AM
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Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

I am not into getting into an argument on the internet. I said what I did for a reason concerning my experiences with the 7mm remington. The problem I have found is there is a high wounding loss percentage because to many people are trying to make the cartridge something it is not. The problem is not that it isn't a good cartridge because it is a good cartridge within what it is designed to do. Just do not force it into situations it is not good at.
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  #46  
Old 04-24-2011, 06:33 AM
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Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

LTLR, just to clarify,it's statements like this in this debate that I think are silly, and by silly, I don't mean funny, I mean babble.

Quote:
There is nothing a 300 win mag can kill that a 7mm rem mag cant. It just has a lot more recoil.
To suggest that the 7 RM is the equivilent or better to the 300 WM is IMO, ridiculous.

Now I have hunted many years with the 7mm and it was a great gun... killed everything I shot with one shot. But I only ever shot one elk with it. A very nice, 6x6 large bodied bull. 15 yds with a 160 NP... the bull leaped up, spun around, took a leap downhill and piled up. So that experience doesn't even really relate to LR.

Having said that, I know the difference between a large bull elk and a deer and as long as I have a 300 Mag (WM, WSM, RUM, etc), I will always pick that over a 7 for elk hunting at any range.

I am not saying that a 7 RM is not capable of hunting elk with. I am saying the 300 mags are more capable and greatly increase the odds of a successful outcome. You are not the only guide that I have heard to say that they've seen a number of bulls shot with a 7RM run off. If the 7 was the only rifle I had to hunt a bull elk with, I have and I would use it, but I would be picky about my shot and use a bullet I know would give me good reliable expansion and penetration and not push it beyond it's effective range.

We use the term max effective range a lot and generally refer to it as the min expansion velocity of a particular bullet. IMO, we should also keep in mind the the size of the bullet, it's terminal characteristics and the size and toughness of the animal. We can probably get a 115 gr 6mm Berger 1000 yds down range at over 1800 fps, but that doesn't mean we should shoot a bull elk with it at that range.

Most rifle and bullet combos under the the medium 338's are hard pressed to reach 1000 yds @ 1800 fps, including the 7 RM and 300 WM or WSM's. In some particular rifles, loads and bullets 1K can be achieved @ 1800 fps plus, but I certainly would be very picky about taking a shot @ that range with one of those chamberings. Conditions would have to be perfect.
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  #47  
Old 04-24-2011, 06:59 AM
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Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cross View Post
- You purposely skipped over the 7mm, which has plenty of the high BC bullets in its caliber to praise both sides of it. When it comes to the 30's, the Cutting Edge bullets do seem to have something to offer, but 30 caliber in general doesn't offer much, if any advantage when it comes to ballistic coefficients. I won't argue that the 338's have high BCs. 338's are beasts. Very few people can withstand multiple shots with a big 30 without a muzzlebreak and even fewer can withstand many of the big 338's without a muzzlebreak. Muzzlebreaks bring their own troubles. Some kick up dirt and most of them make your ears ring for hours. Big 7's will kill elk at long ranges (<1k) without a muzzlebreak.

Cross
Cross, the 7RM is what is, nothing more, nothing less, and it is not a 300 mag. It just dumbfounds me that so many people think the 7mm is some kind of magic pill.

Let's examine some facts of life.

First fact... the 308 is a larger cal than the 284 which means it make a bigger hole and causes more destruction.

Second fact... the 300 mags have more case capacity the the 7 RM and push heavier bullets at greater velocities.

Third fact... there are not plenty of high BC bullets readily available in the 7mm. There are a few. The Bergers and JLK's which are the same thing, and the A-max... all highly frangible bullets with a large spectrum of terminal results. there are also the wildcats that are usually hard to come by, but there are wildcat 30's also. The GS 177 and CE 180's are good BC bullets with good velocity potential in the 308 cal. So if you want to pick for the 7, you can also pick for the 30.

My 300 WSM will out distance any 7 RM with 2" less barrel.

On muzzle brakes and recoil..., I shoot a 300 RUM without a muzzle brake and I can shoot it all day long on the bench using a slip-on recoil pad. The slip-on can be removed if desired for hunting and you will never notice it. Recoil and muzzle breaks are no argument.

I'm not a 7RM hater. As I've stated several times in this thread, I've done a lot of hunting with the 7 and for many years it was my go to rifle and it's a great cartridge. But it is what it is and nothing more... and it is not a 300 Mag.

Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 04-24-2011 at 07:05 AM.
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2011, 12:59 PM
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Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

I still call B.S.!

I can't tell the difference between elk shot with a 338 Win and a 7mm Rem, much less a 300 Winchester. I can't imagine that the first time an elk gets away from my 7mm, I'm going to move to a 300 Winchester. Nay man! Nay! If a 7 Rem won't do then it will be replaced with a big 338 (Ultra or Edge).

The 300 Win is a bigger, more powerful rifle, but the difference is much more marginal that you're trying to sell. If the 177 GS is required to make the 300 Win into this Super-rifle then hardly anyone else is getting the majority of the good out of their 300's are they? I know of no one who uses them except yourself. Most people are limping along with their 180 Accubonds or some sort of cup and cores with lower BCs.

Nope. I'm not buying. Elk shot with a 300 Win just hump up, walk 20 yards, fall over and die just like they do with 7mm Rems and 338 Winchesters. When shot in the chest, elk can't tell the difference.
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  #49  
Old 04-24-2011, 02:11 PM
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Location: Wyoming
Posts: 348
Re: What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag

+1
I'm selling my 300 WM for all the reasons you stated. I just had a 7 mag built and if I feel that I need more power, then I'll grab my Edge. Of course, If I remember correctly, LTLR thinks that an Edge is marginal for a 1000 yd. elk rifle and that we should all step up to a BIG 338. If Elk are walking off after being shot with a 7 Mag, then the shooter either made a bad shot or used the wrong bullet for the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross View Post
I still call B.S.!

I can't tell the difference between elk shot with a 338 Win and a 7mm Rem, much less a 300 Winchester. I can't imagine that the first time an elk gets away from my 7mm, I'm going to move to a 300 Winchester. Nay man! Nay! If a 7 Rem won't do then it will be replaced with a big 338 (Ultra or Edge).

The 300 Win is a bigger, more powerful rifle, but the difference is much more marginal that you're trying to sell. If the 177 GS is required to make the 300 Win into this Super-rifle then hardly anyone else is getting the majority of the good out of their 300's are they? I know of no one who uses them except yourself. Most people are limping along with their 180 Accubonds or some sort of cup and cores with lower BCs.

Nope. I'm not buying. Elk shot with a 300 Win just hump up, walk 20 yards, fall over and die just like they do with 7mm Rems and 338 Winchesters. When shot in the chest, elk can't tell the difference.
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