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Technical question

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Unread 01-01-2004, 02:29 PM
Silver Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: La Grange, TX
Posts: 222
Re: Technical question

Hi Chris

Its very seldom, in my opinion, that I can see better at 600 than I can at 300 yards while testing. But I'll keep that in mind. I've experimented for years on my 600 yard bench here in the backyard with target clarity and have come to the conclusion that for my vision a white diamond of 2.5 inch dia encased by a black edge thats 1 inch thick is what I can see clearest. But I still feel that its rare if ever that I can see better the further out you go. Why there are orange and red targets is beyond me. The glare allows you to never see a sharp edge.

BTW the reason for the 30 inch tubes on palma rifles is NOT for sight radius. We have bloop tubes for that. It is the fact that it almost always takes 30 inches of tube to get a 155 up to a high enough speed to consistently be supersonic at the 1000 yard line. A 30 inch tube is used not for stability or accuracy, but simply due to the regulations of the match and the fact that it takes that barrel length in the required cartridge and projectile combination to stay supersonic.
Get as close as you can, but utilize your skills as needed.
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Unread 01-01-2004, 04:56 PM
Posts: n/a
Re: Technical question

You wrote;
Then, let's say you built loads for each barrel identical in every way except one......

DC---The loads are the "same" in "BOTH/each" barrels.

You cut the quote off before you got the whole idea....

What I said was: "Then, let's say you built loads for each barrel identical in every way except one......the load for each barrel produced the same velocity in it's respective barrel......in other words, both pistols shot the same bullet at the same velocity....."

Notice the part about being " identical in every way except one"? That one difference is that the the loads vary so that they each produce the same velocity from their respective barrels.....in other words, load A produces XXX velocity in the short barrel and load B produces the same XXX velocity in the long barrel......both loads use the same case, powder, primer and bullet, but the amount of powder in each load is different so that both barrels produce the identical velocity.....

Clear as mud? OK, let's say the short barrel requires 50 grains to produce 3000 fps and the longer barrel requires 45 grains to produce 3000 fps....everything about the loads are the same except the amount of powder used......is that better?

I appreciate the input from everyone.....I know this may just be mental gymnastics, but I find it interesting!
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Unread 01-01-2004, 08:55 PM
Gold Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Urich, MO
Posts: 838
Re: Technical question

Rost, kinda used the palma thing as a general example... anyway, I shoot 155 Lapua which do have a higher BC than the 155 MK out of a 22" and have no trouble keeping them supersonic at 1000.
But you can argue with irons benefitting from a longer sight radius, which most get by using a little longer than "normal" barrel. Whatever in the hell normal is... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
As for the sight thing, didn't mean you can see better farther out... just the opposite. The target gets smaller farther out so you have a smaller aiming point. Sometimes we use to big of a target up close. Make sense?
Chris Matthews
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Unread 01-01-2004, 08:58 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 2,539
Re: Technical question

Even with the same charge weight used, PSI at the muzzle on the shorter tube would be higher, add more powder to equal the MV's out just makes that worse, as you probably have already figured.

Enter/return key posted before I was done.

Switching to a faster powder might be a better choice than simply adjusting charge weight.

I've seen bullets do better at long range than they do at shorter, but it could be that one concentrates harder and does better at farther distance, maybe unconsciencely. Could be low sample size makes it appear they tighten up.

I'm not sure, but I have seen it. I've got a way to determine if the "same" group at 100 yards gets tighter at much farther distance and still plan to run some tests to end this question in my mind. If it does prove to be true, you'll still be hard pressed to nail down the cause for it.

I think the heavier the muzzle is, the less it may climb upon recoil, and probably is more consistant from shot to shot.

If a bullet yaws back and forth steadily until it slowely dampens out from disruptions at the muzzle, I don't see why it couldn't change direction each time it yaws the other way from the decreased drag on one side, isn't this exactly what happens when they start to keyhole at LR, groups open up wildly?

[ 01-01-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
Brent Moffitt
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Unread 01-03-2004, 10:57 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: La Grange, TX
Posts: 222
Re: Technical question

Hi Chris

Its a really new ticket that Palma shooters can finally use any 155 bullet instead of only the sierra 155. It was with that bullet that you needed the extra tube length.

I'd bet that since the rules have changed just recently the shooters will opt for a shorter tube with a bloop tube on for the sight radius. Personally I'm amazed that in a standard 308 Win chamber that you can stay supersonic with a 155 vld bullet in a 22 inch tube. Thats gotta be on the edge. When you practice all year and then travel all day in a jet to get to a country you've never been in before to shoot a world championship, well that 30 inch tube is just more insurance to stay supersonic. Especially in the years you had to shoot the issue 155 sierras provided by the host country.

I hear you now on the target issue vs distance. Problem is that it won't answer my question. Maybe some other folks do that , but I always size my target to be for the distance that I test at which is normally 300 and 600 yards. So while that may be an issue with some, its not with me. In fact I dont' have a clue how my rifle shoots at 100 or 200 yards off a bench as I have never accuracy tested that close.

It may just be that there is no real answer to this question. Suffice it to say I still see other folks with VLD bullets that can tear up the X ring at 600, yet have serious trouble holding the 10 ring at 300. Switch to a non VLD design and they'll shoot just as good at 300 as they do at 600 with VLDS. Of course the 300 yard target is tougher than the 600 as far as pure accuracy requirements, IMHO, but the wind can kill you at 600 and beyond.

As to barrel length, if veolcity is not an issue, I'd prefer a short tube all the time.

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