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Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

 
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  #15  
Old 12-31-2008, 07:03 PM
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Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

Just for a little perspective. Here are the first place Agg for the 2008 FCSA world championships:

Heavy Class
Agg.................9.7083"

Light Class
Agg.................9.2917"

Unlimited Class
Agg..................8.1875"

Hunter Class
Agg.................12.540"

Junior Shooters
Agg..................13.7188"

Rookie Shooters
Agg...................10.875"

These are the winners, the best of the best. There were only 18 screamer groups for all these classes of shooting. Of those only three of those groups broke 1/2 moa at 1000 yards and those three were barely under 1/2 moa.

Simply put again, if you can average 1/2 moa, you would win the FSCA championships even in the unlimited class.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2008, 10:22 PM
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Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pstimac View Post
I have 3 tikka's and all shoot 1/2 moa or better - two 270 wsm T3 lites and a 308 varminter. I haven't shot the 308 at a 1000 so I don't know what it will do at that distance but I get 2" groups at 600. The 270 wsm will shoot 5" groups at 1000. I paid $570 and $400 for the 270 wsms and $630 for the 308.

Paul


4xforfun, Kirby, Mike33

Seems like you don't believe on this but I'm not making it up. These are 3 shot groups in light consistent winds. I wouldn't call myself a good shot, but off of a bipod and rear bag, all I have to do is pull the trigger without flinching.

Jerry Theo's article Long Range Hunting Rifle On A Budget on this site states:
What level of accuracy do we need to be qualified as a long range rifle? I feel that consistent, dependable 1/2 MOA mechanical rifle accuracy is an excellent level of performance. Less is, of course, great but there are other considerations besides pure accuracy like functioning and feeding.
This is the first article I read on this site. This article got me believing that long range shooting for me was possible. And that 1/2 MOA long range was possible. I was very impressed with myself when I did it, but didn't think it was a big deal for long range shooters in general since Jerry stated it was the minimum your gun should be able to do if you want to use it to shoot at animals at long range distances. Not only that, people like Kirby and other's said they where getting this (or better) kind of accuracy.

Even Kirby advertises his 7mm allen mag as being able to hold 1/2 moa out to 1000 yards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss7mm View Post
[CENTER][LEFT]

7mm Allen Magnum
338 Lapua Magnum parent case, necked down to 7mm and fireformed to min body taper and shoulder angle.
140 gr.(3800 fps) up to 200 gr. ULD RBBT(.900 bc) 3200 to 3350 fps from 26 to 30 barrel lengths
Designed for long range big game hunting up to and including elk and moose. Has been used effectively on elk out to 1300 yards and has also proven one of the most ballsitically potent rounds in use today including the 277 Allen Magnum and the 338 Allen Magnum. Has proven capable of moa accurate out to 1000 yards and 1 moa accurate out to 2800 yards in good conditions.
Appropriate powders: H-Retumbo, H-50BMG, H-870, H-US869, AA8700 and WC872
In fact if 1/2 MOA from a gun was not possible, shooting at deer sized animals at 1000 yards wouldn't be a good idea, once you add wind reading and shooter errors.

Maybe in a competition situation where you are shooting timed 10 shot groups, without being able to pass because of the wind, then 1/2 MOA isn't possible. Those aren't the condition when I shoot.

Again, I state that my guns can hold 1/2 MOA to 1000 yards. I'm used to getting "that's BS" response when I tell someone who has never shot long range, that I can hit a 10" gong at 1000 yards, UNTIL I show them. It's strange getting that kind of a response on this site, especially from people who got me believing this was possible in the first place.

Anyway If anyone still doesn't believe me is ever passing through Elko, NV I'll show you. Just email me a few days before and we'll arrange to go out and shoot. If these guns don't get the groups I'm saying,... then call "bull ****".



Paul
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2008, 10:35 PM
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Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

Paul,

My reply was in no way directed toward you in any way. No do I have any reason not to fully believe your claims. No problem at all with what you have said your rifles will do.

I have not, did not and will not ever say that 1/2 moa accuracy is not consistantly possible with a relatively inexpensive rifle, if you can in fact call $2000 rifles inexpensive.

Especially for three shot groups. My point was simply that one can not expect to get this level of accuracy out of every rifle every day of the week. Hell, even in ideal conditions, us shooters simply have bad days at times and can not shoot to the ability of the rifle. That is simply a fact.

Again, my point was simply that one should not expect to spend X amount of $$ and be assured to get 1/2 moa accuracy all the time. It just does not work that way as I am sure you would agree.

As to my rifles, I test every rifle I build before I ship it. Every customer is told that the rifles are proven to have 1/2 moa accuracy potential before they will ship. That should be read carefully, the word potential is very important. IF all things are done correctly in good conditions, the rifles will shoot 1/2 moa for three shots.

If the ammo is match quality, if the velocity spread is consistant, if the rifle is sound and the shooter is as well, they will hold consistant 1/2 moa accuracy potential at 1000 yards. What does that mean, well, what I mean when I say that is that when you take a shot at a big game animal, that first shot will be within a 1/4 moa radius around the point of aim. That also requires the drop chart to be dead on as well. Alot goes into this 1/2 moa accuracy requirement.

That is why I say potential.

Anyway, I in no way wanted to offend you. I never had any problems with your results and to be honest was not even thinking of your post when I posted mine.

I just get asked all the time for a 1/2 moa 1000 yard rifle. There is alot involved in it other then just writting a check, that was and is my only point, not in any way that I was questioning your results.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #18  
Old 01-01-2009, 09:01 AM
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Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

I'd think 5" at 1k is possible for <$2k with long barrel and right scope.
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2009, 11:05 AM
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Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

What Kirby has said is real world 1000 yd results. It is "less than inspired" thinking to dispute what he has said. The point he made about the recent 1000 yd championship match and the screamer groups can not be ignored.

I will still keep my Tikka - thank you very much. And I will still use it within it's means - 600 yds, maybe 700 under perfect dead calm conditions.
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2009, 02:20 PM
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Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

I apologize. I misread your response. It seemed to me that you where saying that the best of the best rarely shoot 1/2 moa, which to me seemed to imply that there is no reason to believe the responses (including mine) saying it was possible.


Kirby, by the way, could you tell us more about the gun(s) you shoot at these competitions. I'm assuming that you made yours. Could you also post some pictures? Now I know where your username comes from.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
Paul,

My reply was in no way directed toward you in any way. No do I have any reason not to fully believe your claims. No problem at all with what you have said
I have not, did not and will not ever say that 1/2 moa accuracy is not consistantly possible with a relatively inexpensive rifle, if you can in fact call $2000 rifles inexpensive.

Especially for three shot groups. My point was simply that one can not expect to get this level of accuracy out of every rifle every day of the week. Hell, even in ideal conditions, us shooters simply have bad days at times and can not shoot to the ability of the rifle. That is simply a fact.

Again, my point was simply that one should not expect to spend X amount of $$ and be assured to get 1/2 moa accuracy all the time. It just does not work that way as I am sure you would agree.

As to my rifles, I test every rifle I build before I ship it. Every customer is told that the rifles are proven to have 1/2 moa accuracy potential before they will ship. That should be read carefully, the word potential is very important. IF all things are done correctly in good conditions, the rifles will shoot 1/2 moa for three shots.

If the ammo is match quality, if the velocity spread is consistant, if the rifle is sound and the shooter is as well, they will hold consistant 1/2 moa accuracy potential at 1000 yards. What does that mean, well, what I mean when I say that is that when you take a shot at a big game animal, that first shot will be within a 1/4 moa radius around the point of aim. That also requires the drop chart to be dead on as well. Alot goes into this 1/2 moa accuracy requirement.

That is why I say potential.

Anyway, I in no way wanted to offend you. I never had any problems with your results and to be honest was not even thinking of your post when I posted mine.

I just get asked all the time for a 1/2 moa 1000 yard rifle. There is alot involved in it other then just writting a check, that was and is my only point, not in any way that I was questioning your results.

Paul
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  #21  
Old 01-01-2009, 10:10 PM
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Posts: 853
Re: Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

I do have some experience of shooting like i said shot in the 90's on ibs circuit. Could someone explain the 1/2 moa to me. How it works from 100- 1k? I was assuming 1/2" groups. Thanks,
Mike
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