Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Hunting > Long Range Hunting & Shooting

Long Range Hunting & Shooting Nightforce Optics


Reply

Remington under fire

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #64  
Old 12-01-2010, 10:32 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sedalia, MO
Posts: 1,253
Re: Remington under fire

"This will be decided in court. And, it will be reflected in mounting legislation. " rscott5028


I agree completely, but I'd take that one step further. It'll also be reflected in future complaints about lousy factory triggers that won't break at anything less than 15 lbs, prices doubling on new firearms to cover the lawyers cut of future lawsuits, and makers like Arnold Jewell, Timney and Giesslle calling it quits because it isn't worth the time, money or effort needed to protect yourself from some idiot with poor gun handling skills.

Guns are dangerous. Wouldn't be much use if they weren't. We accept certain inherent dangers when we use, handle or put ourselves in the proximity of them. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if safetys were eliminated on most guns because I see them used as excuses for poor gun handling skills far too often. Both triggers and safetys are mechanical, which means they have the ability to fail if they're improperly assembled, poorly maintained or incorrectly adjusted. That's why we preach muzzle awareness and hammer people so hard on firearms safety practices. I've had issues with Remington triggers, but never with new rifles in proper order that hadn't been monkeyed with. The CNBC piece was blatantly biased against guns and gun ownership (gee, who'd 'a thunk it!), and hardly what I'd regard as much of a credible source. Just remember who your diving into bed with if you want to side with their take on this.

Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
__________________
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA

Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 12-01-2010 at 12:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12-05-2010, 08:56 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 127
Re: Remington under fire

Anyone that has a Remington 700 that they are afraid to shoot, please PM me. I will happily alleviate your fears by taking posession of your dangerous rifle. Heck, I'll even give you $100 a piece for them.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-05-2010, 11:07 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 798
Re: Remington under fire

This should not be a religious discussion with people lined up as pro-gun or anti-gun, pro-Remington or anti-Remington. This discussion should be about whether Remington did something seriously wrong that directly lead to injuries & deaths.

Allegations are that a tiny percentage of Model 700 triggers that haven't been improperly adjusted, and aren't dirty or gummed up, fail without warning, and that this has happened since the model was introduced with Remington hiding this fact from the public. I don't know if any of these allegations are true, but I know these are the allegations.

My first career was as a manufacturing engineer. We know manufacturing parts, either by hand or on automated equipment, means there will be variability in the parts. They will not all be identical. In fact, the "normal curve" used in statistics was developed to show the expected variability of manufacturing processes. Based on this we know, with absolute certainty, that there will be variability in Remington trigger parts and in the performance of Remington triggers. Remington's job was to design a trigger that could function properly in spite of these manufacturing variations AND to do their best to minimize the variations so their products would work as expected. Remington also had a duty (as does every manufacturer) to divulge risks of their products so consumers can take reasonable protections to avoid injuries.

It appears (based on reports now coming out) that since the Model 700 was introduced, a VERY small percentage of triggers were unsafe as produced, and that the design made it fairly likely that an improperly adjusted or maintained trigger might be unsafe. It also appears Remington did their best to hide the trigger failures from the gun-buying public.

There is no excuse for a trigger with a negative sear angle to get out of the factory mounted on a rifle. If that happened, EVEN ONCE, that is a failure of Remington's quality control. A negative sear angle was documented by a supporter of Remington in this thread. Apparently Remington screwed up the design and/or the manufacturing of these rifles if Remington sold a rifle with a negative sear angle.

Then there is the question of "information". The biggest liability of tobacco companies, lead smelters, and asbestos manufacturers came not from making an unsafe product, but from lying about the safety of their product, which encouraged people to use these things & lead to many injuries & deaths after the point the companies knew with reasonable certainty that there were safety problems with their products. This is where it appears Remington is in deep do-do if allegations are true. Remington, from all reports I've seen, paid off plaintiffs suing over damages to buy their silence, which kept others from knowing of potential problems with the Model 700 trigger. If that is proven, (a big if) then it's reasonable for a jury to award damages sufficient to keep any future company from behaving that way (called punitive damages). With a product like the Model 700, that was the core of Remington's profits for decades, punitive damages could be as high as all profits off the Model 700 since Remington knew there was a problem they should have fixed. If that happens, Remington will be bankrupt.

Is it bad that a company should be sued if they do something wrong that injures people? Not if you believe in FREEDOM. Our founding fathers had several choices in how to set up a country. They could have used the authoritarian model (like most countries at that time & throughout history) where subjects did exactly as the government told them under threat of death, or, they could give people freedom to do most things as they saw fit, knowing only that if they harmed anyone when doing something wrong that they would be required to pay damages. They chose to give people freedoms, and the responsibility of paying for any wrongs they committed. That's why this country has more lawyers per-capita than any other country. That was the plan. The other option is fascist rule where the government tells you exactly what to do. I prefer the freedoms even if it means the responsibility of paying for my damages.

So, If Remington was so arrogant that they thought they could simply buy victim's silence for decades without fixing product defects (as is alleged), I support those suing them. If it turns out Remington did nothing substantially wrong, I have faith a jury of Americans will find for Remington as they reach a verdict based on the facts in evidence before them..

I will say that I am in favor of replacing Remington triggers until we know how to identify Remington triggers likely to fail. Timney makes a great trigger, as does Jewell, and a few other companies.

I like Remington products. I've had a few, have some now, & would like a few more. I never liked the Remington Model 700 factory trigger & since I can now afford quality aftermarket triggers, I will be replacing the triggers in Remington rifles we have. My, and my family's safety is worth more than the price of some after-market triggers. This discussion should not be about liking Remington products, it should be about whether Remington did some people wrong & these people suffered damages that Remington should pay.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 01-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 44
Re: Remington under fire

I know this thread is really old, and I apologize for beating this dead horse once again. With that said, I felt I should post a reply here as I saw this exact accidental discharge happen yesterday and was hoping to offer maybe some information or warning. Again, maybe this is beating a dead horse.
I feel there was extenuating circumstances as this happened. We had invited a guest to our hunting lease. Just a regular Joe kind of good guy. He, not knowing a lot about guns except how to be safe with one. Someone had given him a scope and I mounted it for him in camp and took him out to the pasture to sight it in. After a few rounds were fired down range he loaded another and prepared for the shot. He forgot to take off the safety and squeezed the trigger (I don't know the amount of pressure he applied). Realizing the safety was still on, he engaged to the fire position ( no finger on the trigger) and the gun went off. I told him not to fire it any more and to sand it back to Remington explaining what happened and ask for a new trigger.
This was on a older ( I think it was a 12 year old) model 700 ADL in a 30-06. I don't know what kind of care it has received in its lifetime but I suspect by talking with him oil and cleaning fluid has probably gotten down into the trigger group.
This was shocking for me to see first hand and I just thought I should share this information as I saw it first hand.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 01-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 798
Re: Remington under fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEd View Post
I know this thread is really old, and I apologize for beating this dead horse once again. With that said, I felt I should post a reply here as I saw this exact accidental discharge happen yesterday and was hoping to offer maybe some information or warning. Again, maybe this is beating a dead horse.
I feel there was extenuating circumstances as this happened. We had invited a guest to our hunting lease. Just a regular Joe kind of good guy. He, not knowing a lot about guns except how to be safe with one. Someone had given him a scope and I mounted it for him in camp and took him out to the pasture to sight it in. After a few rounds were fired down range he loaded another and prepared for the shot. He forgot to take off the safety and squeezed the trigger (I don't know the amount of pressure he applied). Realizing the safety was still on, he engaged to the fire position ( no finger on the trigger) and the gun went off. I told him not to fire it any more and to sand it back to Remington explaining what happened and ask for a new trigger.
This was on a older ( I think it was a 12 year old) model 700 ADL in a 30-06. I don't know what kind of care it has received in its lifetime but I suspect by talking with him oil and cleaning fluid has probably gotten down into the trigger group.
This was shocking for me to see first hand and I just thought I should share this information as I saw it first hand.

THANKFULLY no one was injured!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 01-10-2011, 10:29 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 2,608
Re: Remington under fire

Quote:
"He forgot to take off the safety and squeezed the trigger (I don't know the amount of pressure he applied). Realizing the safety was still on, he engaged to the fire position ( no finger on the trigger) and the gun went off."
You can easily test that. You don't have to wait until a live round is in the chamber. And, you should always assume it could happen even if you've verified that it isn't happening.

But, if your point is that it does happen, then I concur. So, send it back as your recommended before someone gets killed.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Remington under fire
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dry fire Savageman69 Rimfire and Airguns 11 10-20-2009 01:24 PM
I'm On Fire Anybody Else???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Huntinfool Deer Hunting 9 09-04-2009 12:16 AM
Remington 700, brand new, won't fire aurandbd General Discussion 11 05-14-2008 11:36 PM
Slow fire or fast fire groups? arthurj The Basics, Starting Out 5 05-25-2005 03:31 PM
Fire-Forming? skip AI Reloading 15 04-26-2005 07:33 AM

Current Poll
In the last 12 months, what was your longest rifle kill on big game?
0 to 200 yards - 26.00%
1,549 Vote
201 to 400 yards - 32.16%
1,916 Vote
401 to 600 yards - 23.00%
1,370 Vote
601 to 800 yards - 10.04%
598 Votes
801 to 1,000 yards - 3.91%
233 Votes
Over 1,000 yards - 4.89%
291 Votes
Total Votes: 5,957
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC