My main concern is this, there are thousands of people out there that think what we do it completely unethical. Some are non hunters, but many are hunters themselves.
Its sad but its a fact. Many of those will look for any excuse to go after what we do saying it IS unethical to take game at these ranges even though the majority of the game John kills on his videos are not wild ranges that are out of the norm.
The claims are made time and again that these are all one shot kills and that when done the way John tells you to do it, you will also be able to make long range one shot kills. Certainly no arguement there, do it right and it definately is effective, no question there.
BUT, what concerns me is that there are many out there that have a huge amount of experience taking big game at conventional ranges but are aggressively against long range hunting.
Now it does not matter if your at 100 yards or 600 yards. If you see a group of elk on a hillside, you pick out the bull you want, you line up and prepare for the shot, settle in, and a cow elk walks behind the front shoulders of the bull you have the crosshairs on, DO YOU SHOOT? Forget the range, forget the claims, getting back to hunting 101 basics, DO YOU SHOOT AT A BIG GAME ANIMAL IF THERE IS ANOTHER ANIMAL BEHIND THE TARGET ANIMAL?????
In this case, the trigger broke, and it appears that no harm was done to the cow but will those that are against our way of hunting give this type of decision to shoot a pass? I think not. You can hear them now, those long range hunters do not care about the other animals, they just shoot to get trophies and could care less about the other game around the target animal.
Do I believe John feels this way, CERTAINLY NOT. But, the video gives that impression. Now I have been so zeroed in on a target animal that I lost all awareness of other animals in the area. Luckily, I had good spotters with me that got my attention and a potentially bad situation was avoided, where was Johns spotter if this was the case???
Simply put, we all havebig targets on our backs, why make that target bigger by putting something like this out there for the public where we know for a fact that it will be picked over with a fine toothed comb and anything that in any way loose remotely questionable will be used against us.
As to my comments about the bull not being killed to that one shot, time and again, the claim is made over and over that these are all one shot kills that put the animals on their nose where they are hit. In this case, there is more then enough evidence to shot that this is likely not the case.
The fact that the camera is pulled off the bull nearly instantly after the shot and then the next caption shows the bull well down the hillside only raises questions, what happened when the camera was off? How much time was there between the cut off and getting back on the target.
At least on the first elk, the camera pans back and stays back. On the second example, the camera is turned off and then brought back on. WHY? Is there a reason to show the bull hit the ground, then cut off and then pick back up with the bull 20 yards down the hill?
My point is, leave the second section of video with the bull sliding down the hill off the video because it simply raises questions about Johns credibility and long range hunting credibility as a hole. What benefit does it bring to show that portion of video?
The first thing that popped into my head was there was something in between these sections of video that someone did not want us to see. I often watch videos with this attitude, unfortunately because I know that all our enemies are looking at them in this same way, just looking for an excuse to hammer us.
When you put a product out to the public, you open yourself up to attacks from every side, those that hate you, those that do not care but are watching anyway and those that like you but are worried about our sport. When dealing with long range hunting, in this day and age, you HAVE to make sure the product you offer leaves no room for question. My point is simply that there are several areas in these videos that raise alot of questions and nearly every one I have seen that peaked my attention could easily be eliminated with either a bit more video or a bit less video and the end goal of the product would be the same.
As far as John, I have no ill will against him at all. I know he has taken alot of heat for his videos. I believe alot of this has been brought on by himself, again, just because there are things in the videos that can raise questions as to the legitimacy of the video. AS such, he has been attached several times for this and my only point has been all along that all those questions could be 100% eliminated with just a bit more or a bit less video or at least a breif explination to the viewer.
I have watched many hunting videos for whitetail deer in Canada where big bucks come in and are shot over a green patch of freshly spread hay. Several occasions the buck drops at the shot right in the middle of the alfalfa but when the hunter gets up to the buck, there is nothing but clean white snow all around the buck??????
Do you think those against hunting notice this, you bet, why is it so important that we make it look like there was no hay on the ground where the buck was killed, we don't want those that are uneducated to raise heck about it. Trying to hide the fact is almost worse in my opinion.
This is simply my opinion but if you put something out to the public, especially something as heated as long range hunting, it better be bullet proof against those that do not like what we do because if there is anything that can possibly raise a question, it most certainly will.
We have to monitor each other to protect each other. If someone was advertising they are driving a 180 gr 30 cal bullet to 3800 fps in a 300 RUM would we sit by and not say anything about it. I do not think so. We would speak up for two reasons, the safety of those that may read this and do the same thing, and also to offer constructive critizism to those making the claim that they are treading on dangerous ground and need to rethink what they are telling the pubic.
Same thing in this case.
Again, I hold no ill will toward John in any way. He can seem to be a bit holier then thou because he has been on TV but maybe I come off that way as well, I am sure some feel I do.
Anyway, I am done with this topic as well. We just all need to watch out for each other and tell each other when we see something that could be taken the wrong way. That is how this started and it has turned into personal challanges and if anything I have said has been taken that way by John, I apologize to him.
I do not think he is unethical in any way, I feel is he a great smith, a great shot and a great hunter. I also feel there are a few things on his video that has caused him problems and he has had to try to explain it over and over. That could have been avoided.
Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.
Just my opinion and not directed at anyone in particular...but I think there is way too much time spent critically analyzing the minute details of these videos. I am not saying others can't or shouldn't continue to do it on this site or others. I just don't think it's productive and only leads to frustration and conflict. It's not going to make one bit of difference in how the next video by Bill Smith looks on screen.
There is much to be learned from these BOTW videos and there is also some entertainment value as well. I think that as competent adults we can all make a decision as to what information we will retain from any learning situation. I enjoyed these videos very much and will now dust them off and watch them again!;) They have given a novice long range hunter (me) many points to grow on.... however, my own Personal Ethics are what have to stay intact if I am to be a good and ethical LR hunter. The right knowlege and the right equipment coupled with a very strong sense of ethics will make a success story out of every hunting trip....IMO.
The only comment of this thread that I would personally be able to dismiss is the instant blood flow on the entrance side..... As a user of Berger bullets and knowing that all the animals in that video were most likey shot with Bergers. I can say that finding a Berger entrance wound is hard to do at a distance of 3 feet much less 750 yds on video.......
Put out something new John..... I'll buy it!
Last edited by Coues 'n' Sheep; 03-06-2008 at 07:17 PM.
We just all need to watch out for each other and tell each other when we see something that could be taken the wrong way.
Amen! and you do have a bunch of valid points that have been well explained; we just all need a good dose of good attitude behind our critizicim since crizicim has always been good if done properly.
I want to express this to be also my last post in this thread but before I leave I want to say that Kirby Allen is my friend and I have great respect for him, respectfully disagreeing with him is not easy but if any of it that I said came across wrong to him, I sincerely extend my apologies to him.
God Bless You All!!!
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Our Lord Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah and
also as it was in the days of Lot so it shall be in the days...
It's happening again!!! God sent to us His prophet, and His Word
to this generation and we once more are rejecting it as was prophesied!!! ---> As promised, God Sent His Prophet to us!
This is my first post here on this board... I'd like to commend most all of the parties involved in this discussion. Unlike other boards I frequent it seems that this discussion was very civil, and not meant to flame either John Burns... or his work. There were some oddities pointed out by some very experienced and respected shooters/'smiths... but I found very little written here that was a personal attack on BOTW, or John himself. I've watched the videos... and the TV shows, it's what got me into long range hunting. I appreciate the work John and crew have done to bring information on long range hunting to those who would have never been exposed to it. I'm pretty sure guys like Shawn and Kirby have benefited from the increased exposure of long range hunting... and the demand for long range hunting type rifles and equipment. That being said... I can see where both Shawn and Kirby, as well as a few others, are coming from. ALL HUNTERS need to be very careful what they put out on video now days. That's just how it is... because no matter what the content... good or bad... it'll be on 'youtube' in t-minus 2 minutes.
I truly appreciate this board, the wisdow that y'all share, and the civil way you go about debating differences in opinion. Great board!! ~yb
PS... can't wait to get Shawn's new video, should be pretty cool.
Well I'm kinda dissapointed with you boys that are being a bit overly critical of Mr. Burns on this stuff. Some of you are people who I have gained a lot of respect for since joining this site. But to be honest, John Burns got me interested in this stuff to begin with and I would still be a clueless kentucky windage shooter if he wasn't around.
I've seen a whole lot of animals shot and I've seen more than one drop DRT and then give a couple kicks and roll down a hill. Didn't mean it was a bad shot, animals aren't robots and no matter how effective the shot, sometimes they do the funky chicken. If you doubt this, go cork a couple rabbits in the brain and see if they all turn off without kicking and flopping around.
The shot where the cow was standing behind should have probably been passed on, but hey, no harm no foul. I'm sure that after reveiwing the footage they realized that, but to be fair these guys have a little bit more going on than the average long range guy with all the cameras and such, and with all they've done for the sport I think they deserve a little slack.
As for the "it's our duty to police our own in order to keep the anti's off our back" thing, I sure do agree with the principle, but not the methods employed here. If you saw something that should be brought to their attention, fine, do it. But don't do it in a public forum where every card-carrying PETA member can use your criticism as ammunition against us. Email the man and tell him your concerns. Don't drag him through the mud for the entire public to see.
I have alot of respect for John Burns, as well as Kirby and Shawn, and I'm honored that Mr. Burns would post here, even if it's on such a bad note. I hope in the future we could convince him to contribute a little to our community without having to justify everything he's ever done. How many of you could escape any criticism if every big-game shot you took in the last 5-10 years was on video?