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A real LRH topic - I hope....

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Unread 03-03-2008, 09:36 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 178
I own the video and enjoyed watching it. It was hard watching it in this post though because I couldn't stop watching the idiot getting hit with the bat.
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Unread 03-03-2008, 11:42 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 115
i own the vid, now i'm going to watch it again. on the most part a good vid looks like the high shoulder shot , sure drops them.
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Unread 03-04-2008, 09:28 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: colorado
Posts: 1,052
It doesn't surprise me that Shawn noticed that hit landed off the mark. I sent that video to Kirby for him to see and he pointed out a bunch of stuff that I missed. Kirby and Shawn are real pros and prove it time and time again. Great topic though.
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Unread 03-04-2008, 10:09 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Posts: 8,829
Me thinks that those like Shawn and Kirby otta go on the road with their act.

Wouldn't it be sweet to see Kirby doing the Wednesday night thing at Sportman's or Cabelas? I chuckle at the thought.

There have been some very informative posts re: this topic. I've learned a bunch.
I may be the slowest guy on the mountain . . . . but . . . . I'm on the mountain!
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Unread 03-04-2008, 06:03 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 82
Shawn Carlock,

I am curious how you determined the hit was behind the diaphragm? As I skinned out that bull I found the hit directly in the top of the shoulder. hmmm

When I played the video on my big screen TV I am at a loss as to where your determination came from?

Please explain


John Burns
John Burns
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Unread 03-04-2008, 09:13 PM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 1,877

I will say that you were there and I was not. So if you say it was a high shoulder hit I am not going to say it was not. I first noticed that the bulls butt hit the ground before the shoulders even moved. I have seen this to be consistant with spine hits closer to the pelvis than the shoulder. It is not a fool proof indication just something I look at. The other issue in my opinion of the hit being too far back is the blood streaming from a spot about 10-12" forward of the pelvis and a good distance back from the shoulder. I suspose this could be an exit wound on the same side as the impact? I have seen strange bullet routes in bodies both animal and human. The two effects in concert are what formed my opinion as they go hand in hand, from my experience. If it was in fact a high shoulder hit and the bullet turned 90 degrees after impacting something hard traveled down the spine turned again and exited the left hand side (impact side) of the body, then I stand corrected. I use this shot as an example why the high shoulder shot is a good shot to take. Since most shot errors are in windage it allows for some mechanical error in windage and still be a good shot. However as the shot moves back it is a small window in elevation to become a poor shot. As I said in the begining of this post, the shot has all the appearances fo being too far back despite hitting the spine and dropping the bull. I was not there and you were so if you say it was a high shoulder hit I will accept that, even though there is nothing I see on the video to indicate or support that it was a high shoulder hit.
Shawn Carlock
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Unread 03-04-2008, 10:46 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 82
Shawn Carlock,

I was there and I do know Len hit that bull perfectly on the top of the shoulder.

What I don’t understand is how anyone can watch that video and have any doubt?

The front end of the bull begins to collapse before his butt hits the ground. Anyone with any experience knows the back end always folds up first. This is basic physiology of any four legged animal. The rear legs are held by muscle and the front end is inline bone. The back end always hits the ground first.

There are at least 10 other examples of this through out the video.

As for “blood streaming from a spot about 10-12” forward of the pelvis and a good distance back from the shoulder” I don’t know what you are referring to in that statement. I know there was no blood streaming from this side of the elk and I can’t see any in the video.

Having seen my fair share of elk killed I have never witnessed in real life nor on video a gut shot that drop the elk on the spot. Hits to the spine behind the diaphragm leave the front legs able to support the front end of the animal for a while and the animal will travel a short distance pulling the disabled rear end. This is clearly not the case as this bull has lost control of everything from his shoulders back. He can only move his head up and down a few times before he expires on the spot he was shot.

According to your web site you are also filming hunts. Do you have any video of an elk hit on the top of the shoulder that the rear end did not collapse first?

I really am interested because I am sort of dumfounded that anyone could see the same video I see and think it was anything but a perfect hit. I guess what I mean is that “Beyond Belief” is far from perfect and there are certainly mistakes but this is one criticism that caught me by surprise.


Yes the bull was looking at us. We had to move out of the timber to the left and he saw something while we were setting up.

I have used the Whoop on Idaho elk and it worked there also. I am completely incompetent at whistling so that is just not an option for me.
John Burns
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