Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Hunting > Long Range Hunting & Shooting

Long Range Hunting & Shooting Nightforce Optics


Reply

Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #50  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:01 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,105
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

First off, hats of to Eric. His class really shows through.

I have had bullets fail from every manufacturer that I have shot.

Hornandy SST- 10" penitration (blow up) from a 225 grain .338 cal
Barnes triple shock (open tip)- 250 grain .338 cal- pencile through.
Nosler Accubond - tips of 5 bullets in 20 broke off in recoil
Berger VLD- 95 grain 6mm pencil thorugh on a coyote (didnt find the dog... but he died)

no bullet is perfect, but i think that Berger is on the right track. I have used the Gen 2 OTM's on whitetales and have no problems (though at inide 300 yards).

I see the new Nosler bullets pushing the shooting sports envelope in the same way that Berger has been doing it for the last 6 years.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:13 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Idaho Falls
Posts: 292
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Okay guys, not sure if this will help as I havent had a "fail" with a berger but as I am a curious fella I went down and carefully studied the the hollow point on the 210 hunting vlds in every bullet in a box of 20 I have loaded. Lot #4449.

1 of the bullets loaded out of those 20 rounds I can not get a little paper clip down further than about .053 thou. All the others I can push a paper clip down at least .117 thou. Perhaps this has something to do with these fails that to me seem few and far between.

Now I realize a little paper clip and a caliper is far from sophisticated but none the less it was a measurable difference on that one bullet, no matter how crude.

Someone earlier posted a link to a meplat uniformer...... Eric why does Berger recommend not to do this....it seems to me as though it would be no different than turning case necks. Just trying to make every round exactly the same.......

Maybe my redneck paper clip measurement might have something do with some of these fails. I would think the eighth inch depth of the hollwpoint is good for expansion but the One that wasnt quite a sixteenth not so good.

And kudos to Eric and Berger as ive seen him do time and time again on this forum. Thats customer service
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:48 AM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 272
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoRedneck View Post
Eric why does Berger recommend not to do this....it seems to me as though it would be no different than turning case necks. Just trying to make every round exactly the same.......
This is a good question. The reason we recommend that the tips be left alone is because this is how the bullets are tested. If the tip is trimmed then the end of the jacket is made thicker and perfectly flat. We don't know what affect this will have on terminal performance but this condition is different than how the bullets are tested.

When it comes to repointing, most repointing processes close the tip up to a fine point with little or no exposed hole. Some testing done by others has suggested that a lack of some opening can essentially turn the bullet into a FMJ. It is believed that the bullet needs some area for the fluid to enter before the bullet will expand. We have not tested these ourselves but have seen this reported by shooters we regard as capable so it has become one of our recommendations that you don't change the tip of the bullet.

Regarding the paper clip test, it is more sophisticated than you suggest. We actually use a staple that is not folded over. We straighten the staple and push it into the tip. Once it bottoms out we bend the staple at the tip so we can measure the depth of the hollow point. This is actually one of our steps in the QA process.

After going through a number of 7mm hunting bullets we were able to find 10 that we could not put a staple in at all. These bullets are being shipped to MI where Bryan will be able to test them to see what happens. We also sent bullets that allowed the staple to go to the lead. We will compare them to each other.

Regards,
Eric
__________________
To strengthen your shooting skills go to the range.
To strengthen the shooting sports take a non-shooter with you.

Berger Bullets
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:11 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SW Idaho
Posts: 1,170
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
Rhian,
I will add a comment on my personal experience with sealed Berger VLD bullet tips and how I blundered into this finding. Eric may scold me for this post because he advises against messing with their bullet tips.

Anyhow, I purchased the Meplat Uniforming tool from Kevin Cram. It's a tool that precisely trims the Meplat flat on the VLDs. In addition, Kevin sells a hollow-pointing tool that can be used after the meplats have been trimmed to a uniform length. Here's a quick link to photos of the tools and bullets that have been meplat unifomed and hollow-pointed: Montour County Rifles
After this link opens, left click on the Meplat Uniforming Tool tab in the left hand column of the web page.

So I did this with about 200 of the 168 gr .284 VLDs and about 250 of the 210 gr .308 VLDs. During this process, I encountered at least 6 bullets, and I believe it was 7 bullets, with the tip of the jackets completely closed in - sealed - no hole in the tip of the jacket. This is easier to see after the meplats has been trimmed back ever so slightly, but the real confirmation comes when using Kevin Cram's hollow-pointing tool after the tips have been squared off. The leading tip of the hollow-pointing tool never did reach down into the hollow cavity in front of the lead core of these seven bullets.

This led me to suspect that this could be a reason for the occasional VLD failing to expand on game. I began this meplat uniforming and hollow-pointing venture in the effort in improve the likelihood that my VLDs would be even more likely to expand on each and every impact on game, after I had an experience where a 210 VLD didn't expand on the dall ram.

So for what it's worth, I encountered approximately 7 VLD bullets out of approximately 450 that I meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed - with the tips of the bullets completely sealed off. The jacket material was pinched totally together at the tip, and extending down into the tip at least the full length of the drill tip on the Kevin Cram hollow-pointing tool (a minimum of about 3/32" and more likely 1/8"). Berger doesn't recommend or encourage their customers to mess with the tips of their bullets that will be used for hunting. But I have my suspicions about the closed tips being a source of the non-expanders, and I will personally sort those few bullets out from now on and use them for sighting in or load development, rather than on game animals.
Without taking this thread too far off course, I would love to know the results you got after using the MCR uniforming and HP tool, espeically in regards to increased accuracy, expansion, and drop in BC. If you feel this takes this thread too far off course then maybe PM me but I think that info would be valuable for all reading. I have a feeling you are very much onto the reason for the rare occurrence of the non expansion of Berger bullets. Great thread and input guys!

Scot E.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:35 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SOCIALIST CONTROLLED TERRITORY OF NEW YORK
Posts: 4,394
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
Damn,

Gotta say I've never seen any other bullet manufacturer demonstrate this level of concern and effort, and this type of open communication with the hunting community, in the sincere effort to improve their products, the proper use of their products, and customer satisfaction. Very commendable Eric! Big thumbs up from me.

Oh yeah, very interesting information also. Thanks for sharing.

PS: And Broz deserves a few bullets. He's been a faithful provider of lots of good information on this Forum, and I mean in addition to all the Berger in-use end results stories too.
Good comment he also doesn’t look like a freak so maybe put him in the commercial to.
I always read these threads with a lot of skepticism as I have never had anything but positive results. There are so many factors involved and everyone is not at the same level (experience). It just seems as if this things should be posted after the manufacture is contacted and fails to do nothing about it. The site has had issues with this type of stuff in the past, people and I may be guilty as well saying product X sucks etc. with no empirical data or a preverbal leg to stand on to back it up.
__________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
If you want to shoot Bergers start here!
http://www.longrangehunting.com/arti...accuracy-1.php
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:42 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Idaho Falls
Posts: 292
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
Without taking this thread too far off course, I would love to know the results you got after using the MCR uniforming and HP tool, espeically in regards to increased accuracy, expansion, and drop in BC. If you feel this takes this thread too far off course then maybe PM me but I think that info would be valuable for all reading. I have a feeling you are very much onto the reason for the rare occurrence of the non expansion of Berger bullets. Great thread and input guys!


Scot E.
+1 I would also be interested in your results phorwath.

Seems to me this would be a soloution.......uniformin the meplate and HP. Provided terminal results are good. Dan
Attached Thumbnails - Click to View Larger
Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????-sc20121207-103648.png  

Last edited by IdahoRedneck; 12-07-2012 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:30 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 3,512
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoRedneck View Post
+1 I would also be interested in your results phorwath.
Scott E and IdahoRedneck,
Short answer is I don't have the answers to Scott's great questions for several reasons. I've shot custom bullets that elkaholic has manufactured the past two hunting seasons. So my chronograph work, load development, and testing turned to those bullets and loads shortly after I meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed these VLDs. I plan to shoot the meplat tricked-out VLDs through my triplicate chronograph setup at 1000 yds to determine % reduction in BC, but haven't done that yet. And in general, a move within the local area has reduced my hobby time over the past 12 months.

I can say the Kevin Cram tools produce sweet looking bullet tips. I did this because I had an intuitive expectation that if I created the slightly enlarged V-shaped hollow point on the tips of the bullets, that I might be able to reduce or eliminate those instances of non-expansion, and that the bullets might be even more apt to expand at long range, low velocity impacts on game. The hollow-pointing tool thins the leading edge of the jacket and creates a picture perfect V down into the hollow of the tip of the bullets. It seemed to me that a V shape would be more apt to disrupt when impacting game than a thicker, blunter leading edge on the jackets.

It does take a fair amount of time and effort to meplat uniform and hollow-point 450 bullets. If Berger did this, they'd have to charge a premium for the extra time and labor. And if you decide to do it yourself, you'll value the bullets more than before due to the investment of your labor.

My thoughts: I will be able to determine any reduced BC value after I chronograph at 1000 yards. I may be able to discern some affect on accuracy, but I don't expect that. Otherwise ALL benchrest shooters would be doing this. I won't be able to determine if the hollow-pointing improves the odds of expansion any time soon, because the vast majority of VLDs seem to expand as intended. And I don't kill enough animals to reach a confident conclusion any time soon. Going about it on my own WILL require a large number of game animals killed to determine if the hollow-pointing eliminates the incidents of non-expanding bullets.

Eric's approach will be much more time-efficient to determine if the closed tips are a causative factor in failures to expand. Identify a potential cause and then focus on thoroughly testing that specific cause. In this case, shoot only the closed-tip bullets to determine if those bullets with no hole in the tips fail to expand a significantly increased percentage of the time. I appreciate the challenge. When the vast majority of VLDs do expand, it will be difficult to finger a primary cause for the limited number of non-expanding incidents.

A hunters, we may have to accept the fact that just about any bullet design may fail to perform 100% of the time. I had a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip fail to expand on a dall ram at a distance of 12 yards about 20 years ago. Shot the ram through the ribs, just behind the shoulders. Completely broadside shot. The ram acted like he'd not been hit. He jumped and reversed position 180 degrees and then stood there looking around until I saw a small tiny red spot on the white hair in the middle of the ribs where the bullet exited on the off side. So I continued to wait and watch thinking the animal would collapse very soon. Long story short, he was still alive 20 minutes later when I finally shot him a second time. This experience is why I stated earlier, perhaps only God will know why bullets sometimes fail to perform to standards of expectation.

An even more bizarre incident. Locally, and about 8 years ago, an older man shot his neighbor with a .338 Win Mag at point blank range (less than 15 feet). He was tying to kill his neighbor following some sort of disagreement. The gunshot victim did fall to the ground, but continued to talk. Was asking the neighbor why the h_ll he shot him? Another long story short. The gunshot man survived being hardly any worse for the wear. EMTs and paramedics were all dumbfounded and reported that the bullet struck close to the heart, and thru and thru'd the torso above the diaphram. Same type of report later from the hospital. Obviously that bullet didn't expand. I would have loved to have seen the look on the shooter's face after the shot, which produced very minimal affect. I'd guess he may have decided he'd picked a fight with the wrong fella! For the unbelieving, this incident was reported in the local Peninsula Clarion, Kenai, Alaska. Might be able to find it with a Google search. Last piece of gossip... The shooter was an occasional customer at my brother's gun shop. My brother said the customer always seemed like a nice guy. Never imagined he'd have done something like this.

I'll report on my findings with the meplat trimmed and hollow-pointed VLDs, but only after I've reached some fairly confident conclusions. I think I'll be able to discern and calculate a reduced BC. But the reduction in BC has already been fairly closely determined in the past from other shooters' reports (~2%, but it's dependent on how much tip is shaved off the bullets). I'm not confident I'll be able to reach conclusions on the other items of interest anytime soon...

Last edited by phorwath; 12-07-2012 at 04:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets jhlobik Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 95 02-09-2014 08:31 PM
Video interview of Walt Berger and Eric Stecker of Berger Bullets Len Backus Videos Of Tech Stuff And Reviews 6 02-18-2012 11:22 AM
GS bullets on game w/ pics RockyMtnMT Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 14 12-12-2009 07:26 AM
Berger needs hunting pics Eric Stecker Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 3 10-30-2007 11:08 PM
Need several 7mm bullets.Cauterucio,JLK & Berger VLD bullets... smack Guns For Sale 1 03-04-2007 09:10 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC