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Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

 
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  #36  
Old 12-06-2012, 01:47 PM
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmden View Post
What about the rounds in a magazine that get the bullet tips slightly flattened after the the first shot in the field is taken due to recoil? I hadn't thought too much about this before (and, once this happens, I usually keep the same rounds down in the mag and load a fresh round in the chamber for the duration of the season), but I wonder if this could contribute to a lack of expansion? Anyone have any experience here?
This is a valid point for consideration. And also the reason I have no experiences to report. Because I'm one of the guys that empties the magazine prior to long range encounters in order to prevent any bullet tip damage to the rounds in the magazine during rifle recoil - regardless of the brand of bullet I've loaded into the magazine.
The only time the rounds in my magazines will ride out rifle recoil is if I surprise myself, and the game (or predator - bear yikes!) animal in a close range encounter, and open fire in that scenario.
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  #37  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:09 PM
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Well here is my response to a few questions that were being asked:
I asked Broz if he recieved bullets, because i think he did a great job on publishing photos and info. ect. on a hunting bullet that was used in a hunting situation! Everyone appreciates the feedback that is done in the field rather than just on paper! I too, test alot of bullets and calibers at different ranges on different species of animals! Its interesting to see the results.

7mm Mag Load
Winchester Case
Federal Large Rifle Magnum Match Primer
70.0 grains of Hodgon Retumbo
180 gr. Berger Hunting VLD
Lot # 4250 500count of Bullets (some performed great on animals and a few didnt)

No i did not touch the tips of any bullets and yes my i feed my rounds out of the magazine, and i know the question there is going to be did you slam the tip against the magazine ect and close the tip up! but no i did not do that, i am aware of that being possible though.

So far i think Phorwath has the greatest ideal of information as far as testing the 400+ bullets and finding 7 that were fully enclosed.

I do like Berger bullets as i said before and im not trying to give them a bad reputation, I will continue to use Berger bullets but i really want the explanation of why some perform and why some dont.

Yes i agree heart and lung shots are vital shots. but not all hunting conditions are perfect and for anyone that shoots long range knows that anything can happen, or the wind may not have been judged perfectly across the canyon ect. an elk can go a long ways on one lung, and its really tough to find a blood trail with a pencil hole that didnt do much damage. On this cow elk the shot placement was great and i think she would have died within the hour, but i put another one through her anyways to make sure she didnt go anywhere. the second shot was a broadside shot. That bullet performed on how it should! My dads bull at 705 yards 210gr vld 300 RUM dropped the bull in the park slid 300 yards and didnt bleed a speck of blood! I searched the snow for one drop of blood and videoed it because im so interested in long range hunting as Broz is! He then followed up with a neck shot at 20 yards.

The 338 Lapua 300gr. bullet was a Hybrid OTM Tactical with lot #4352, maybe thats the problem but correct me if im wrong Broz is using a 215gr. tactical and getting outstanding performance. and i dont believe he would be getting near the energy on his 1250+ yard antelope as this bear would have at 1,152 yards.

Ya I agree with BowhuntWhities, that I wont quit shooting Berger, but if the new Noslers are what they say they are, might not be a bad idea doing some testing with those as well!

Yes Eric, Thanks for getting involved in a forum since i know you have your irons in the fire and you are a big company! I appreciate your feedback as well!
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  #38  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:44 PM
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmden View Post
What about the rounds in a magazine that get the bullet tips slightly flattened after the the first shot in the field is taken due to recoil? I hadn't thought too much about this before (and, once this happens, I usually keep the same rounds down in the mag and load a fresh round in the chamber for the duration of the season), but I wonder if this could contribute to a lack of expansion? Anyone have any experience here?
I've seen it many times before which is why I no longer use soft points of any sort.

As someone already stated, no manufacturing process is perfect 100% of the time and it is up to the loader/reloader to inspect the bullets before they seat them and to inspect the finished product prior to usage.

Eric cannot be held responsible for us failing to do our own due diligence because once they leave the factory it's literally out of his hands.
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  #39  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:12 PM
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Bullridety,

I don't want for you or anyone to think that I don't appreciate feedback, good or bad. Good feedback helps others and frankly sells more bullets. Bad feedback is an opportunity to improve which, if handled properly, educates shooters and inevitably sells more bullets. Neither scenario is bad for the shooting sports or Berger.

Thank you for your response to the questions. I pulled our production records for the 180 gr lot 4250 and didn't see any notations that stand out as relevant. I can confirm that we used the correct jackets (not thick jackets).

Your load is 0.8 gr more than we list for the max load in our loading manual which means only that it is not excessively high or low so nothing there to comment on.

The fact that you didn't modify the tips is good. I think it is worth considering what happens to the bullets in a magazine but my gut tells me that if this is the root cause of our problems then we are in much worse shape than I'd like. I would think that our bullets should be able to handle such activity but this hasn't been confirmed either way yet.

The results with the 338 cal Tactical are not surprising. We can't compare them to the results that Jeff is having with the 215 gr Hybrid Target because the jacket on the 338 cal is considerably thicker than the 30 cal by comparison.

We made the 338 cal much thicker to overcome performance problems when pushed at high velocity and pressure. We may have gone overboard but the people using these bullets (military) can't afford this type of poor performance (erratic trajectories and extremely poor accuracy). The new 338 cal 300 gr Elite Hunter is made with a different jacket to allow for more rapid expansion on game.

We have been kicking this situation around the room and have zeroed in on the next thing that we are going to test. That is the closed tip. Assuming this is the cause for the sake of discussion, it explains a lot of what we observe. For example, when we test bullets we get back, they perform as expected.

Also, hunters will report that one or a few bullets failed to perform out of a box rather than all of them. Another observation is that a lot that doesn't work as expected for one hunter works great for another hunter. This closed tip situation connects several confusing dots which indicates that the result is bullet specific rather than lot related.

In this case we won't need the bullets back since what we do need is to test bullets that have a closed up nose (you can't put a pin or staple into it). We can find those here. I've asked our Plant Manager to have someone go through the hunting bullets that are in our stock to see if they find any bullets that have this condition and to set them aside.

After we collect some of these we will shoot them in media to see what happens. We will also shoot bullets from the same lot into the same type of media for comparison. It is my opinion that bullets perform differently in media since it is constant and living tissue is marbled with various densities and structure. This doesn't mean that we can't see meaningful results in media but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions without thorough testing.

Regards,
Eric
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Berger Bullets
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  #40  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:22 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 888
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullridety View Post
Well here is my response to a few questions that were being asked:
I asked Broz if he recieved bullets, because i think he did a great job on publishing photos and info. ect. on a hunting bullet that was used in a hunting situation! Everyone appreciates the feedback that is done in the field rather than just on paper! I too, test alot of bullets and calibers at different ranges on different species of animals! Its interesting to see the results.

7mm Mag Load
Winchester Case
Federal Large Rifle Magnum Match Primer
70.0 grains of Hodgon Retumbo
180 gr. Berger Hunting VLD
Lot # 4250 500count of Bullets (some performed great on animals and a few didnt)

No i did not touch the tips of any bullets and yes my i feed my rounds out of the magazine, and i know the question there is going to be did you slam the tip against the magazine ect and close the tip up! but no i did not do that, i am aware of that being possible though.

So far i think Phorwath has the greatest ideal of information as far as testing the 400+ bullets and finding 7 that were fully enclosed.

I do like Berger bullets as i said before and im not trying to give them a bad reputation, I will continue to use Berger bullets but i really want the explanation of why some perform and why some dont.

Yes i agree heart and lung shots are vital shots. but not all hunting conditions are perfect and for anyone that shoots long range knows that anything can happen, or the wind may not have been judged perfectly across the canyon ect. an elk can go a long ways on one lung, and its really tough to find a blood trail with a pencil hole that didnt do much damage. On this cow elk the shot placement was great and i think she would have died within the hour, but i put another one through her anyways to make sure she didnt go anywhere. the second shot was a broadside shot. That bullet performed on how it should! My dads bull at 705 yards 210gr vld 300 RUM dropped the bull in the park slid 300 yards and didnt bleed a speck of blood! I searched the snow for one drop of blood and videoed it because im so interested in long range hunting as Broz is! He then followed up with a neck shot at 20 yards.

The 338 Lapua 300gr. bullet was a Hybrid OTM Tactical with lot #4352, maybe thats the problem but correct me if im wrong Broz is using a 215gr. tactical and getting outstanding performance. and i dont believe he would be getting near the energy on his 1250+ yard antelope as this bear would have at 1,152 yards.

Ya I agree with BowhuntWhities, that I wont quit shooting Berger, but if the new Noslers are what they say they are, might not be a bad idea doing some testing with those as well!

Yes Eric, Thanks for getting involved in a forum since i know you have your irons in the fire and you are a big company! I appreciate your feedback as well!
You state that you have Berger 180 gr VLD HUNTING bullets ina 500 count box. As far as I have ever heard, Berger does not offer HUNTING bullets in 500 count boxes.

Can anyone comferm weather or not this is true??
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  #41  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:36 PM
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Posts: 272
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

We've added 500 count boxes to the more popular hunting bullets. This includes the following:

6mm 105 gr VLD Hunting PN 24758
25 cal 115 gr VLD Hunting PN 25753
6.5mm 130 gr VLD Hunting PN 26753
6.5mm 140 gr VLD Hunting PN 26754
7mm 168 gr VLD Hunting PN 28751
7mm 180 gr VLD Hunting PN 28752
30 cal 168 gr VLD Hunting PN 30750
30 cal 185 gr VLD Hunting PN 30753
30 cal 190 gr VLD Hunting PN 30754
30 cal 210 gr VLD Hunting PN 30757

This change was a direct result of a thread on this forum.

Regards,
Eric
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To strengthen your shooting skills go to the range.
To strengthen the shooting sports take a non-shooter with you.

Berger Bullets

Last edited by Eric Stecker; 12-06-2012 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Additional Information
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  #42  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:37 PM
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Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,461
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
I've seen it many times before which is why I no longer use soft points of any sort.

As someone already stated, no manufacturing process is perfect 100% of the time and it is up to the loader/reloader to inspect the bullets before they seat them and to inspect the finished product prior to usage.

Eric cannot be held responsible for us failing to do our own due diligence because once they leave the factory it's literally out of his hands.
What do you use?

From my experience the Berger and SMK type bullet survive the whack in the magazine better than do most other bullets. I'm just wondering if anyone has any real world experience or done any testing the the 'whacked' Berger/SMK type bullets.

I'm certainly not intending to put any responsibility/blame anywhere, just to be clear, WildRose, in case your comments were directed at me. A 'whacked' bullet point is simply a byproduct of hunting with rounds in a magazine. No more...no less. I have made an observation and was curious if others could shed any light on it via their experience/possible testing. The issue I raised may not be an issue at all, I don't know. But it would be nice to know if it is, and if it is, I may make adjustments.
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