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Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

 
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  #162  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The cold part of Montana
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

The topic is about hunting bullets so I will address it as to my opinion about modifying the meplat on a hunting bullet.

1st Bergers has done extensive testing as to the performance of their hunting bullets. What they have not done as far as we know about, is testing bullets with modified meplats. So I will go back to Eric Steckers statement to that. We don't know what will happen.

2nd as Bryan Litz has tested and shown there is a benifit to be gained in relation to BC increase. As far as detrimental effects are concerned, I do not believe Bryan would employ trimming and pointing if it hurt.

3rd Although there is a benefit to be gained is the benefit meaningful to hunting accuracy (1st round where it needs to go). I don't think so, as the difference is infact real it is also small and when considered in the full scope of make a 1st round hit at long range on a target of 8" or so an accomplished shooter can easily be off on their wind reading by .5moa or more.

So what is my point? It's this. You would be fare better served by spend the $ that a bullet trim die and uniforming die will cost you and spend it on reloading components, and spending the time worrying about such things in the field getting in real trigger time, as all the theory in the world means nothing without experience to prove or disprove that theory. So go shoot and get better
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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
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  #163  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:36 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central AZ
Posts: 911
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

The debate surrounding the uniforming and trimming of meplats in hunting bullets is something that I have wrestled with myself. While I accept Joe's argument that the benefit is so small that the $$ invested may not be worth the incremental increase, I also realize that this same fact could easily be applied to most of the stuff we talk about on this site.

We are diligent in our reloading process with the hope of closing our groups up just a little. Same thing with custom barrels, triggers, scopes and stocks. Some of these upgrades yield huge benefits, others yield small or no improvement at all. Yet we do them.....all in the the pursuit of excellence. Were this not the case, we would all still be shooting 1 MOA rifles and calling it good. It is the pursuit, the trial and error of our labors, that built the LRH foundation on which we now stand.

As I understand it, the failure to open with this particular Berger bullet is so small, that it should not matter. We should just go out and shoot. But here we are, some 27 pages and 185 responses later, still trying to understand something so that it can be improved. Apparently, inquiring minds still want to know - including me.
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  #164  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:32 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The cold part of Montana
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Your exactly right, I've thought about trying it myself but I'm not sure I would realize the benefit, and then there's that idea of "how is it going to impact terminal performance?" Since that is the root of why I shoot and reload "hunting proficiency". I am very surprised though that there are so few instances of reported bullet failure and fewer still that can be verified. I myself have seen exactly one that I feel really was a failure of a bullet to perform as it was designed. In 30 years of hunting, hunting with my dad and brother, friends, kids. I've seen it once. Then considering the sheer number of biggame taken across the country every year, modern bullets in modern firearms have a pretty stinkin good record I think. Even the number of bullet designs that didn't perform to the levels that I demand is pretty low. when I see a report here and there that this bullet failed or that bullet failed experience makes me wonder about, shot placement angle and range, or the shooter failed and won't admit it to their self. I've done it in the past. Now if a person sees time after time a bullet say eject the core and not create sufficient shock or wound channel size, then by all means try another. Been there myself. So far though I've been very pleasantly surprise with how Berger's have performed for me, and guys like Broz stepping outside of the box and trying something new with wild success, is encouraging enough that I am going to follow suit.
__________________
Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
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  #165  
Old 03-10-2013, 07:41 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

I really have a hard time believing your story of finding the "bear bullet" after 1000+ yards shot. Or for that matter shooting a 243 at that great of a range. Very unethical hunting in my opinion.
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  #166  
Old 03-10-2013, 08:18 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 120
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

Good for you believe what you need to believe, I know what happened and that's what matters, I'm tired of all the disbelievers trying to feed me negatives, so if that's what you feel you need to write keep your comments to yourself or start your own thread to bitch.
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  #167  
Old 03-10-2013, 08:49 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central AZ
Posts: 911
Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

UHrc,

Welcome to LRH. I think you will find this site to be an open and free exchange of ideas and information. You will also find that ethics in some hunting situations are a bit hard to define, so we generally stay away from accusing someone else of unethical behavior. To the average hunter, anyone taking a shot of 400 yds or more might be considered unethical. And yet, here we are. I sometimes wonder about some things I read on this site as well. But I wasn't there. So I take them at their word until I learn otherwise. It keeps everything friendly and moving in the right direction. Again, welcome to LRH.
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  #168  
Old 08-15-2013, 08:12 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
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Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
Scott E and IdahoRedneck,
Short answer is I don't have the answers to Scott's great questions for several reasons.

My thoughts: I won't be able to determine if the hollow-pointing improves the odds of expansion any time soon, because the vast majority of VLDs seem to expand as intended. And I don't kill enough animals to reach a confident conclusion any time soon. Going about it on my own WILL require a large number of game animals killed to determine if the hollow-pointing eliminates the incidents of non-expanding bullets.

I'll report on my findings with the meplat trimmed and hollow-pointed VLDs, but only after I've reached some fairly confident conclusions. I think I'll be able to discern and calculate a reduced BC. But the reduction in BC has already been fairly closely determined in the past from other shooters' reports (~2%, but it's dependent on how much tip is shaved off the bullets). I'm not confident I'll be able to reach conclusions on the other items of interest anytime soon...
I shot my first big game animal with meplat trimmed and hollow pointed Berger 210 VLDs last weekend. I used the Kevin Cram manufactured Meplat Uniforming and Hollow Pointing tools, as described earlier in this Thread. The animal was an ~ 350lb bull caribou. I thought it would take some time to determine what effect this bullet modification would have on bullet expansion characteristics. I was wrong. The increased rate of bullet expansion was so obvious on this bull, that I'm confident in stating the meplat trimming and hollow-pointing greatly increases the rate at which these modified VLDs expand on game.

Following are a number of photos showing the damage to the entry side of this caribou. The bullets entered the right side of the bulls ribcage, and exited the left side of its ribcage. The bullet damage on the entry side is visible in these photos, to an extent I've never experienced with factory Berger 210 VLDs out of my 300 Win Mag. I shared these photos with 'Broz' since he's examined many more big game animals harvested with the factory 210 VLDs. He said he's never seen entry side blood shot damage like this on any of the big game he's seen harvested with unaltered factory Berger 210 VLD bullets.

The bull was up-slope 20 degrees from my position. The first hit was at 500 yds. The second hit was at a distance of 535 yds. MV = 2936 fps. One bullet slid between the ribs. One directly impacted a rib, and the entry side damage from the bullet that struck the rib was obviously greater than from the bullet that missed the ribs. I believe the bullet that hit the rib exited in two pieces, because it struck closer to the shoulder than the other bullet and the two-hole exit is closer to the shoulder on the exit side of the ribcage.

Here's the photos I took while field butchering this bull:



Entry side after trimming away some of the worst blood-gelling right next to the bullet holes.




After further trimming away of blood shot meat.


After trimming away of blood shot meat is complete. Two bullet entrance holes are clearly visible now. The one on the right struck the rib just off the tip of the knife blade.


Entry holes viewed from inside the ribcage.


Exit holes viewed from the inside wall of the far side ribcage.


Exterior of offside ribcage prior to any trimming of blood shot meat. The damage to the exterior of the offside ribcage was more substantial than the damage to the exterior of the entry side ribcage.


Any questions - ask.
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