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Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

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  #155  
Unread 01-21-2013, 01:16 AM
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Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

There's absolutely nothing in that mathematical formula that states Berger bullets that have had the meplats uniformed are less accurate than they are right out of the factory box.

The reason Eric Stecker didn't mention meplat uniforming affects on accuracy is because he can't tell you that meplat uniforming degrades accuracy, because done correctly, it doesn't. Don't read more into what he stated. Surely Bryan Litz would have mentioned somewhere within one of his two books that meplat uniforming degrades accuracy, if that were the case.

Provide us with a reference to a quote from Eric or Bryan to the effect that meplat uniforming Berger bullets degrades accuracy. Not a mathematical equation.

Done correctly, there's no reason to expect meplat uniforming will degrade the accuracy of Berger bullets. Proper meplat uniforming will improve the uniformity of the bullet tip, and likely improve the bullet to bullet BC consistency, which can contribute to accuracy at extended ranges. Lesser vertical spread due to more consistent bullet BC.
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  •   #156  
    Unread 01-21-2013, 02:20 AM
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    Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
    There's absolutely nothing in that mathematical formula that states Berger bullets that have had the meplats uniformed are less accurate than they are right out of the factory box.

    The reason Eric Stecker didn't mention meplat uniforming affects on accuracy is because he can't tell you that meplat uniforming degrades accuracy, because done correctly, it doesn't. Don't read more into what he stated. Surely Bryan Litz would have mentioned somewhere within one of his two books that meplat uniforming degrades accuracy, if that were the case.

    Provide us with a reference to a quote from Eric or Bryan to the effect that meplat uniforming Berger bullets degrades accuracy. Not a mathematical equation.

    Done correctly, there's no reason to expect meplat uniforming will degrade the accuracy of Berger bullets. Proper meplat uniforming will improve the uniformity of the bullet tip, and likely improve the bullet to bullet BC consistency, which can contribute to accuracy at extended ranges. Lesser vertical spread due to more consistent bullet BC.
    Which variable in the formula above can you change without changing the ballistic coefficient?

    The only way your theory holds water is that you can achieve better consistency if your bullets coming from the mfg are not uniform and consistent and one is meticulous in trimming each one exactly the same and then sorting through and measuring each one for the same length and then sorting them further by weighing each of them to ensure consistent length and wt.

    You didn't include that in your post I referred to though did you?

    I guess if you are buying crap bullets that aren't uniform or consistent in length, shape, and weight you might well see an improvement in your groups by doing so but if I had to go to such lengths to get my bullets to perform I'd throw them away and find something better.
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      #157  
    Unread 01-21-2013, 02:25 AM
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    Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Crankbender View Post
    Better if everyone used their brains.

    Anyone can throw an idea out there even if they don't have the time to do all the testing. If it's a great idea there are people that will jump on it and try it out.


    Oh and on the Vaseline, that one was from John Barsness when he had trouble getting TSX to open up in dry newspaper. I had noticed the same thing when testing out that bullet. After reading John's article I put some in my TSX's and had them open up every time in dry news paper. IT WORKED!
    At short range I can see how one could get away with it. I can't see it working much beyond a 100yds or so unless it's somehow creating enough pressure to start the bullet opening up shortly after leaving the barrel.

    As supersonic speeds leading edges and points get very hot.
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      #158  
    Unread 01-22-2013, 05:07 PM
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    Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

    Put a polymer tip on it and you get better BC and better expansion. Problem solved.
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      #159  
    Unread 01-22-2013, 05:56 PM
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    Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Surgikill View Post
    Put a polymer tip on it and you get better BC and better expansion. Problem solved.
    And you would get a Hornady A-MAx
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      #160  
    Unread 01-22-2013, 06:20 PM
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    Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

    http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...mNumberOne.pdf

    Meplat (bullet tip) modifications
    Effects of both meplat trimming and meplat pointing were tested for these
    bullets. For those not familiar with these procedures, here’s a quick explanation.
    Meplat trimming is
    the process of
    cutting the ragged
    bullet tips to a
    smooth, uniform
    diameter. The
    objective is to
    eliminate bullet to
    bullet variations in
    BC that are due to
    inconsistent tips. The downside to meplat trimming is that it leaves the bullet tips
    slightly larger, which decreases the average BC a little. Meplat pointing is a
    newer treatment whereby the bullet is pressed into a die that has an insert at the
    top that ‘squeezes’ the bullet tip down in diameter. In this way, a large meplat
    can be made smaller. The net result is an increased and a more uniform BC.
    Table 1 shows the effects of trimming and pointing the meplat on the G7 BC of
    the two Berger bullets.
    Next month, I’ll take the results of this test data and put it into the context
    of 1000 yards slow fire prone shooting. The analysis will focus on the
    performance of these two bullets in terms of wind drift.
    the process of
    cutting the ragged
    bullet tips to a
    smooth, uniform
    diameter. The
    objective is to
    eliminate bullet to
    bullet variations in
    BC that are due to
    inconsistent tips. The downside to meplat trimming is that it leaves the bullet tips
    slightly larger, which decreases the average BC a little. Meplat pointing is a
    newer treatment whereby the bullet is pressed into a die that has an insert at the
    top that ‘squeezes’ the bullet tip down in diameter. In this way, a large meplat
    can be made smaller. The net result is an increased and a more uniform BC.
    Table 1 shows the effects of trimming and pointing the meplat on the G7 BC of
    the two Berger bullets.
    Next month, I’ll take the results of this test data and put it into the context
    of 1000 yards slow fire prone shooting. The analysis will focus on the
    performance of these two bullets in terms of wind drift.

    2 This represents an extreme amount of trimming. The large value is given to bound all
    possibilities, and show the consequences of excessive trimming.
    168 grain VLD 180 grain VLD
    Meplat BCG7 (lb/in2) Meplat BCG7 (lb/in2)
    Trimmed2 0.084” 0.309 0.097” 0.324
    0.068” 0.315 0.062” 0.336
    0.064” Nominal 0.316 0.059” 0.337
    0.060” 0.317 0.055” 0.338
    Pointed 0.044” 0.323 0.039” 0.344
    Table 1. Effects of trimming and pointing meplat. Numbers in
    Bold indicate meplat sizes that were actually tested.
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    Joe
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      #161  
    Unread 01-22-2013, 06:31 PM
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    Re: Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

    http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...mNumberTwo.pdf

    Possible Effects of Meplat Modifications on Score
    We’ll perform this analysis in the same way as the previous one. This
    time we’ll leave the Palma bullet out of it and focus on the 7mm bullets. Table 2
    shows what affect the meplat modifications may have on wind drift and score due
    to differences in ballistic performance. This is a good opportunity to point out a
    limitation in this particular simulation. The reason why meplat trimming is done is
    to uniform the BC of the bullet, thereby minimizing vertical dispersion due to
    variations in BC. My simulation does not give the trimmed meplat bullets less
    vertical dispersion. This is a shortfall of this particular simulation. In order to
    model that effect, it would be necessary to measure the meplat of all the bullets
    in a box to see what the range of diameters is, and how much vertical dispersion
    they would cause. Then the simulation could be rerun with that much less
    vertical dispersion for the trimmed and pointed meplats. As it stands, there are
    some accurate and valuable conclusions that can be drawn from the results of
    the virtual matches in spite of its shortcomings.
    · High BC bullets will not enable a novice shooter to produce high master
    scores. The scores that are attainable by the shooter are tied to that shooters
    ability to hold, squeeze, and read wind more than small differences in ballistic
    performance of the bullets.
    · The small benefit of a slightly higher BC does not greatly impact the score on
    the long range NRA prone target, even for elite shooters.
    Understand that these results are specifically tied to long range prone
    shooting on the NRA Long Range prone target. For targets having smaller
    scoring rings (F-class for example), the small difference in ballistic performance
    may show up as a greater difference in the score.




    Just some light reading Keep in mind Bryan Litz is Berger's Bullet designer, he trims and points his bullets (7mm 180gr Berger Hybrid) that he uses in matches, and uses those bullets to win national level matches. Me personally I doubt he would be doing it if the benefits did not out weight any possible negatives.

    Eric's statement about don't do it is in relation to hunting bullets only as the effects on these types of modifications as far a terminal performance is concerned, is unpredictable. I cannot find fault in that logic.
    __________________
    Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

    Joe
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