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which new caliber for 13 yr old

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  #15  
Unread 09-09-2008, 02:10 PM
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Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Peacock View Post
OK, I give. A 7mm-08 is a great Elk cartridge, as long as he is not alone, is proficient, takes only perfect shots. I also agree that KE is a horrible determiner of killing power. What would you like to use? Taylor's knockout formula? Whatever you use, you will find that when looking at all possible cartridges, the .243 and 7mm-08 are NOT far apart.

I have one question, have you ever seen a large bull hit in the shoulder bone with something the size of a 7mm-08? I have. Actually, it was a .280 Rem, which is considerably heavier than a 7mm-08. After 2 days of looking, the hunter found the 5x6 bull dead in the cedars. It was an 'almost perfect shot' except it happened to hit the shoulder bone.

I'm done here, BigBoreDan can answer any of your questions from here on out.

AJ
Well if you think that the .243 is as good as the 7mm-08 then maybe your advice is better left out. As for criteria how about we start with S.D. and compare your 95gr. partition(which you recommended) to a 160 TSX(which I recommend) its .230 vs. .283 which in layman's terms equal piss poor to very good. Under 200yds. the scenario you describe above shot with my bullet equals DEAD ELK. Properly loaded and used the 7mm-08 is plenty for elk and a good starting point for a young hunter.

Under any formulation be it SD, OGW, Taylors KO, or whatever the .243 and the 7mm-08 are VERY far apart.
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  #16  
Unread 09-09-2008, 02:37 PM
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Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoreDan View Post
Well if you think that the .243 is as good as the 7mm-08 then maybe your advice is better left out. As for criteria how about we start with S.D. and compare your 95gr. partition(which you recommended) to a 160 TSX(which I recommend) its .230 vs. .283 which in layman's terms equal piss poor to very good. Under 200yds. the scenario you describe above shot with my bullet equals DEAD ELK. Properly loaded and used the 7mm-08 is plenty for elk and a good starting point for a young hunter.

Under any formulation be it SD, OGW, Taylors KO, or whatever the .243 and the 7mm-08 are VERY far apart.
I would not have come back, however I refuse to be mis-quoted.

Please point out to me where I said anything even remotely similar to "... the .243 is as good as the 7mm-08"

Here is a list of the things I did say.

1) "He already has a .243, in my opinion the 7-08 is too close to the same power level to be a viable option (I own a .243 and 2 7-08's, so I'm not biased)"

2) "I've seen Elk killed with both 7-08 and .243. They are both underpowered as an elk cartridge. I've killed several dozen big game animals and I could take either cartridge and kill an elk out to 250 yards or further. BUT, I would not allow a beginner to carry either one after Elk. Thats just me. A .243 loaded near max with a 95gr Nosler will give you around 1900ft lbs, a 7-08 loaded up with 140 gr bullets will give you around 500 more ft lbs. I would agree that the 7-08 is more capable, but it is still wanting in the big-game category when you are talking about Elk sized game."

3) You said " The 7mm-08 with a good hand loaded 160 partition and ranges kept under 200yds. would be a better combo than any .243 load" and I said
"I agree totally, that still does not make the 7-08 a good option as an elk rifle."

4) "...when looking at all possible cartridges, the .243 and 7mm-08 are NOT far apart." NOTICE, I did NOT say "the same"!


I NEVER RECOMMENDED A 95gr .243 for ELK, I simply used that bullet as an example to show that the .243 and 7mm-08 are "SIMILAR" in KE. Please do not mis-quote me.

Let me be clear. IN MY OPINION, NEITHER THE .243 NOR the 7mm-08 are reasonable choices as an elk rifle. If you are shooting them over a salt block at 50', then yes they would be fine. The original poster had NO LIMITATIONS on his request, he didn't say 200yds or less or any other preposterous assumptions you have added to this discussion.

One more time, just in case you need to hear it again. The 7mm-08 is MORE capable than the .243, THAT DOES NOT make it a good choice for an elk cartridge.


Have a wonderful day,
AJ

ps: I especially liked your line
" Under 200yds. the scenario you describe above shot with my bullet equals DEAD ELK."
This makes me believe that you haven't experienced first hand just how much lead an elk can actually carry. Even elk that SHOULD HAVE died right there and didn't.
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  #17  
Unread 09-09-2008, 02:45 PM
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Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Peacock View Post
I would not have come back, however I refuse to be mis-quoted.

Please point out to me where I said anything even remotely similar to "... the .243 is as good as the 7mm-08"

Here is a list of the things I did say.

1) "He already has a .243, in my opinion the 7-08 is too close to the same power level to be a viable option (I own a .243 and 2 7-08's, so I'm not biased)"

2) "I've seen Elk killed with both 7-08 and .243. They are both underpowered as an elk cartridge. I've killed several dozen big game animals and I could take either cartridge and kill an elk out to 250 yards or further. BUT, I would not allow a beginner to carry either one after Elk. Thats just me. A .243 loaded near max with a 95gr Nosler will give you around 1900ft lbs, a 7-08 loaded up with 140 gr bullets will give you around 500 more ft lbs. I would agree that the 7-08 is more capable, but it is still wanting in the big-game category when you are talking about Elk sized game."

3) You said " The 7mm-08 with a good hand loaded 160 partition and ranges kept under 200yds. would be a better combo than any .243 load" and I said
"I agree totally, that still does not make the 7-08 a good option as an elk rifle."

4) "...when looking at all possible cartridges, the .243 and 7mm-08 are NOT far apart." NOTICE, I did NOT say "the same"!


I NEVER RECOMMENDED A 95gr .243 for ELK, I simply used that bullet as an example to show that the .243 and 7mm-08 are "SIMILAR" in KE. Please do not mis-quote me.

Let me be clear. IN MY OPINION, NEITHER THE .243 NOR the 7mm-08 are reasonable choices as an elk rifle. If you are shooting them over a salt block at 50', then yes they would be fine. The original poster had NO LIMITATIONS on his request, he didn't say 200yds or less or any other preposterous assumptions you have added to this discussion.

One more time, just in case you need to hear it again. The 7mm-08 is MORE capable than the .243, THAT DOES NOT make it a good choice for an elk cartridge.


Have a wonderful day,
AJ

ps: I especially liked your line
" Under 200yds. the scenario you describe above shot with my bullet equals DEAD ELK."
This makes me believe that you haven't experienced first hand just how much lead an elk can actually carry. Even elk that SHOULD HAVE died right there and didn't.
Now the truth comes out. Close is what within a mile or two??? They are not close even remotely. That statement tells me you don't understand much when it comes to choosing big game cartridges. Hundreds of elk fall to 7mm Remington Magnums every fall. The load I proposed and the ranges at which I stated the 7mm-08 would be ideal for A 13 YEAR OLD TRYING TO TAKE AN ELK!!!

I am glad you liked my line...you show me one elk that can shrug off a 160gr. bullet through the boiler room.:confused:

P.S.

I am having a wonderful day. I enjoy banter back and forth more than almost anything especially when my opponent tees them up for me so nicely.
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  #18  
Unread 09-09-2008, 03:21 PM
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Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoreDan View Post
Now the truth comes out. Close is what within a mile or two??? They are not close even remotely. That statement tells me you don't understand much when it comes to choosing big game cartridges. Hundreds of elk fall to 7mm Remington Magnums every fall. The load I proposed and the ranges at which I stated the 7mm-08 would be ideal for A 13 YEAR OLD TRYING TO TAKE AN ELK!!!

I am glad you liked my line...you show me one elk that can shrug off a 160gr. bullet through the boiler room.:confused:

P.S.

I am having a wonderful day. I enjoy banter back and forth more than almost anything especially when my opponent tees them up for me so nicely.
I'm trying to get the "truth out", you didn't point out where I said they were the same yet. Please for the sake of the truth, please do so now ;).

What I said was, "...when looking at all possible cartridges, the .243 and 7mm-08 are NOT far apart." NOTICE, I did NOT say "the same"!

So lets look at SOME possible cartridges using KE (because it's easy to use).

22-250 40gr bullet 3900 fps KE = 1350
.243 95gr bullet 3000fps KE = 1900
7mm-08 140gr bullet 2800fps KE = 2400
270 Win 130gr bullet 2950fps KE = 2511
.308 168gr bullet 2650fps KE = 2619
30-06 180gr bullet 2650fps KE = 2806
7mm RM 160gr bullet 3000fps KE = 3196
300WSM 200gr bullet 2900fps KE = 3734
... a lot more calibers on this end of the scale.

So to add some clarity to my statement (and I quote) "...when looking at all possible cartridges, the .243 and 7mm-08 are NOT far apart." They are both on the 'light' end of any discussion of Big Game calibers (one example is the list above). And to answer your question, I don't feel that 500ft lbs and .041" caliber difference is very much. You may feel differently and that is your prerogative.

We could use SD or Taylor etc. Both of which favor frontal area and weight. The .243 and the 7mm-08 would still BOTH be on the light end of the spectrum of all possible cartridges. I recommend at least a .30 caliber for Elk (I use .338 personally).

The original poster asked our opinions. I gave mine and you gave yours. You can show me a railroad car full of elk that you've personally shot with a 7mm-08, all with one shot kills; I still will not be convinced that the 7mm-08 is a caliber well suited to elk hunting (I'm not talking about sub 200yd shooting of perfect shots, that is not what the original poster asked).

AJ

ps: As far as showing you one elk that can withstand your 'magical' 7mm-08 160gr bullet through the boiler room. That isn't the issue; sometimes lightweight cartridges don't reach the boiler room; even when the shooter does everything possible to make it happen. For the sake of the elk, I hope you never find one that decides to shrug off a good hit, or happens to put a large bone in the way of your perfect shot.
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  #19  
Unread 09-09-2008, 03:35 PM
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Posts: 164
Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Cole


Since he already handles the Model 7 well, and since you handload, I'd suggest that you consider another Model 7 in 7 SAUM.......the 7SAUM Model 7 is surprisingly mild in the recoil department. I'd load it with a 140 grain TSX and never look back!! I have one set up in an HS Precision stock and, with 140 grain bullets @ 3150fps, the felt recoil is less than my 308 Model 7 with 150 grain bullets!!! I can't explain it, but it's true.......

PS: Zanders still has stainless Model 7s in 7SAUM for $418.......you will need a dealer to order one for you, but it's hard to beat the price!!

Last edited by buzzgun; 09-09-2008 at 03:40 PM.
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  #20  
Unread 09-09-2008, 03:37 PM
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Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Peacock View Post
He already has a .243, in my opinion the 7-08 is too close to the same power level to be a viable option (I own a .243 and 2 7-08's, so I'm not biased). I feel they are both too small for elk (kinda like giving a new shooter a .410 and sending them after waterfowl). Since you reload, I'd get him something that is a definite step up in power and simply have 2 loads (one for tons of practice, and the other for hunting). Even the hunting load doesn't need to be at the top of the power curve, but you may be surprised at how much he grows in the next year and just how much power HE will want.

I started shooting a 7mm Rem Mag when I was 13. It was a bit much for the first year, but after that, watch out.

There are so many great calibers it's tough to choose, but I'd lean towards a 300WSM, load some 308 power loads in a light bullet until he want's a little more umphh! There is great brass available, it's a short action caliber and is known for it's accuracy. It can be loaded up to levels that will take anything in north america and can be reduce loaded to very mild levels as well. 30 caliber has the greatest selection of bullets for reloading of any caliber as well.

I still shoot the same 7mm RM I was given when I was your sons age (new barrel, stock and trigger though ) and it is my favorite rifle. Get him something he can grow up with.

AJ
AJ you keep changing the parameters and your story. If you think the 7mm Mag is great then why not the 7mm-08 ? It's all a matter of range. If the 7mm mag is good to 300 then the 08 is good to 200. A properly constructed bullet is the key. Now we aren't talking the ideal elk rifle for any situation that is a whole different conversation. I am talking about a tightly controlled situation that you either shoot an elk in or pass.

KE is easy thats also why its faulty. Frontal area and bullet weight play a huge role in killing power. For someone who has killed dozens of big game animals you should know this.
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  #21  
Unread 09-09-2008, 03:51 PM
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Re: which new caliber for 13 yr old

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoreDan View Post
AJ you keep changing the parameters and your story. If you think the 7mm Mag is great then why not the 7mm-08 ? It's all a matter of range. If the 7mm mag is good to 300 then the 08 is good to 200. A properly constructed bullet is the key. Now we aren't talking the ideal elk rifle for any situation that is a whole different conversation. I am talking about a tightly controlled situation that you either shoot an elk in or pass.

KE is easy thats also why its faulty. Frontal area and bullet weight play a huge role in killing power. For someone who has killed dozens of big game animals you should know this.
Not changing my story. The 7mm RM is vastly superior to the 7mm-08, because it can shoot heavier bullets and still maintain an excellent trajectory. The original poster had no limitations on distance. I recommended the 300WSM, NOT the 7mm RM, because I feel it is better. It has a larger frontal area, it has a great selection of excellent hunting bullets, it can be loaded down to .308 power levels and will grow with the shooter.

I already agreed that KE is a poor judge of killing power. I simply used KE as an example to clarify my statement that the .243 and 7mm-08 are not far apart when you look at "all possible cartridges". The same would be true using the other values.

Trust me, I understand that frontal area and weight are important. I personally use a .338 with nearly 8000lbs KE and a 300gr bullet. I've put a considerable amount of $ where my mouth is in acquiring my Elk rifle.

Again, the original poster did not limit his question to 200yds.

You stated that you " enjoy banter back and forth more than almost anything". I don't. I hope I've clarified my response, just because you and I don't agree, it's not the end of the world.

Remember, even though it's wrong, I still support your right to your opinion.

Later,
AJ
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