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Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

 
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:26 AM
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Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

I was on the range the other day and speaking to a gentlemen and he was saying that anything that happens at 25 yards as far as group size is almost identical to what will happen at 100 yards as long as the shooter can do his part. Now i called bulls*** on that. He was saying anytime he freshly mounts a scope he shoots first at 25 yards (to make sure hes on paper and to test group size) to see if its even worth it to back it up to 100 then to 300 and so on? Now the other day i went to the range and with a gun i had remounted a scope on and worked up my first couple loads for it. I was at the 25 yard mark just checking zero before i moved back to the 100 (couldnt go to the 300+ cause range was closed for the day). figured why not touch of a couple shots with differen't powder charges. First shot at 25 was almost an 1 full inch. when i stretch to the 100 it was basically an even inch. the second powder charge was almost an even 1 hole group, and when i backed it out to 100 i measured the group being .386". then with the 3 powder charge stayed just high of half inch at 25 but opened up to about .75 at 100. now that couple have been me but it was basically what he said. Is this true, or just the way it happened to turn out?
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:43 AM
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Re: Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

Some people zero for 25 and call it good for shots to 300. I have done that with a 220 swift and shot same hole, or what appeared to be same hole. At 100 it was more like .3. I don't like it. Bullets are still trying to stabilize and have not settled down yet. LR bullets sometimes don't settle down until after 200.

I know several people who do this 25 yard thing and I have yet to see it test out they way they claim.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentM View Post
... Bullets are still trying to stabilize and have not settled down yet. LR bullets sometimes don't settle down until after 200....
My thought exactly. For anything bigger than a .22 lr I shoot my groups at 100-200, sometimes 300 yds. It's easier to see discrepancies in loads and groups at these distances as opposed to 25 or 50 yds. Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it I guess... But like BrentM said the long LR bullets sometimes won't group good at close distance due to instability. You have to stretch out a few hundred yds to see the potential.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:38 PM
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Re: Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

No it's not true, it's about half true depending on how you are measuring. Any error at 25yds mathematically will increase proportional to the range. If you are four MOA off at 25 you will be four MOA off at 100-beyond and maybe even more since measuring errors add up very quickly as well. 1moa at .25 basically cannot be measured since it's a bug hole with all but the tiniest calibers.

He's really kind of half correct. as measured in MOA that should not change, but measuring in fractions of an inche(s) that will increase as the range increases.

That being said at the price of ammo and components I will usually after mounting or remounting generally take my first shot at 25yds as well and adjust over to 1.5" low and dead center. That should put you almost dead on for 100 other than differences in scope height and whether you have an MOA rail or not.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:24 PM
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Re: Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_3479 View Post
I was on the range the other day and speaking to a gentlemen and he was saying that anything that happens at 25 yards as far as group size is almost identical to what will happen at 100 yards as long as the shooter can do his part. Now i called bulls*** on that. He was saying anytime he freshly mounts a scope he shoots first at 25 yards (to make sure hes on paper and to test group size) to see if its even worth it to back it up to 100 then to 300 and so on? Now the other day i went to the range and with a gun i had remounted a scope on and worked up my first couple loads for it. I was at the 25 yard mark just checking zero before i moved back to the 100 (couldnt go to the 300+ cause range was closed for the day). figured why not touch of a couple shots with differen't powder charges. First shot at 25 was almost an 1 full inch. when i stretch to the 100 it was basically an even inch. the second powder charge was almost an even 1 hole group, and when i backed it out to 100 i measured the group being .386". then with the 3 powder charge stayed just high of half inch at 25 but opened up to about .75 at 100. now that couple have been me but it was basically what he said. Is this true, or just the way it happened to turn out?
I think your results answered your own question... It is legit enough to get you on paper to THEN go sight-in @ 100, and then move on from there. I would NOT use it as a reference as to how well your loads are grouping, or how well they will group further down the line.

However, I only sight-in @ 100 or further. Because, just like with anything, distance means there will be greater variance in accuracy and group size. For example, the rule of MOA. 1 MOA is roughly 1" @ 100 yards. Therefore 5" @ 500 yards, 10" @ 1,000 yards, and so on...
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2013, 06:11 PM
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Re: Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

I was taught the 25 yard zero as a kid, and it can make sense provided 1) your scope is mounted correctly, 2) you need to punch the x, not settle for close enough. At various sight in days I've helped with I've seen some pretty interesting POI shifts at 100 and 200 yards. It is a time saver, and a useful tool, but like Wildrose said those proportionally increasing errors will eat you up.

Group size at any range may or may not represent what happens at other ranges. Personally, my thought is there are more demonstrable instances of under stabilized bullets deteriorating, than over stabilized bullets going to sleep.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:24 PM
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Re: Need an answer? was it bulls*** or true?

For those who don't quite get the explanation...

Take a piece of graph paper.

Mark one spot as your shooting position.

Count each square as 25yds.

Show a strike point at 25yds just slightly off of the straight line.

Then count off 100, 300, and 600yds.

Draw a straight line from your shooting position through the slightly off strike point at 25yds and using a ruler or other good straight edge run that line on out.

You can if easier do it starting with a 100yds target.

Either way you'll see how your errors increase exponentially distance wise as the range increases.
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