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Most "Inherently Accurate" Cartridges

 
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  #15  
Old 10-07-2005, 07:38 PM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

I knew there would be some discussion on that. No problem at all. Has anyone developed a 30-06 recently? I bet it would be every bit as accurate as a 308 IF the same CHAMBER TOLERANCES and THROAT specs were utilised. You would get a whole lot faster too.

Or are we really comparing the shooting attributes of service rifles (Garand vs M1A)???? Now that would have nothing to do with cartridge accuracy.

Remember that this is about 1000yd shooting, no short range stuff. At longer ranges, the limiting factor is still the ability to dope the conditions. There has been little issue getting a match winning accuracy with a whole host of cartridges in bolt rifles.

Just look at the success of the 260, 260AI, 6.5X55 reg and AI versions, then the 6.5-284, 6.5 X 57, 6.5WSSM and so forth (I would add the 6.5 Mystic but not officially campaigned yet). All different cases yet ALL can be equally accurate when all the proper tweaks are applied. In fact, the 260 vs 6.5-284 is basically the same difference in case capacity as the 308 and -06.

Any worries about the 260 being accurate enough? Maybe not fast enough but that hinders wind bucking NOT accuracy.

Do some research into the many 6mm wildcats. Even more diverse.

As to the 30-30 case, personally, the big issue would be the lack of brass strength. It will not handle the pressures associated with modern cartridges. Case would simple 'fail' / distort.

However, take the rim off, reduce taper and guess what, you are within spitting distance of the 'superb' 6XC that seems to be the new winning design. Just remember that the web area would have to be reinforced as done in the XC case.

Hey, come to think of it. Why not we just go make some rimmed XC/30-30 brass and have a lever action class? That would make for an interesting afternoon on the range. Oops, we already have that - 225 Win. I bet if this case was used instead of the 30-30, that shooter would have had much more success.

So there you go, a quick look at why case capacity only limits the bullet velocity, NOT it's ability to be launched accurately. Barrel quality, chamber concentricity, throat design etc, etc. play a much more important role.

Jerry
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  #16  
Old 10-07-2005, 08:49 PM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

Jerry,

I certainly am not arguing with you here just adding to the many thoughts and ideas.

Its fair enough for you to compare match quality chamberings, barrels ect...Take the flip side to this comparison. Factory for factory. I have owned numorus factory 308 rifles that were solid 1000 yard rifles out of the box. I never have owned a factory 30-06 that I could justify shooting at 1K, unless I just wanted to blow powder. The 308 is one rifle I have never owned in a custom format due to its "inherent" accuracy and simply never needed to go custom. Even with the sloppy factory chambers and long freebore and corn cobb barrels I still have had them deliver some astounding 1000 yard groups consistently. Never in a 30-06, for me anyway. You cant argue with the variety of powders, bullets and charge weights that the 308 will shoot extreemly well and in so many combinations where other cartridges might only like 1 or 2 powders and a couple charge weights, bullets ect...

Some of the other cartridges you mentioned in your last post are also, like the 308, very inherently accurate, such as the 6.5x284 and a wide variety of 6mm's. Personally I still belive that some will be more inherenty accurate than others regardless of rifle quality. The 6mm PPC and the 6mm BR are 2 similar cases yet the PPC's dominate the bench rest scene. Maybee its a fluke, or maybee its better.

This is a good topic and very good insight.
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  #17  
Old 10-08-2005, 12:01 AM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

Thanks for taking your time to explain. It is good to be able to disagree and still see the point that you are making. I'm just seeing it the way meichele explained it, but maybe one of this days... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Thanks again!
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2005, 11:05 AM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

Very good points. From a Factory perspective, the 308 definitely has a better SAAMI chamber, for the most part. So a cartridge may be made to look good or bad simply by the errors in the SAAMI specs.

Were you aware of how many 308 spec chambers there are?

I have seen enough great shooting '06 to say that all is not lost. Many of the best shooters were actually WW1 P17 enfields. The several that I have played with were sub MOA (yes, orig barrel and action in a sporterised config - BSA to be exact. Amazing). My hunting rifle for several years was one of these and no issue keeping up with any 308 out to 1000m.

If a measure of inherent accuracy is its ability to shoot anything well, alright, the 308 is a very friendly cartridge.

However, you also include the 6.5-284. That one is quite particular of its likes. Just that its main use is target shooting so no one complains as they use the same basic components. Only a few powders work in that puppy. So does that make the 6.5-284 less inherently accurate?

The PPC and BR have very different applications so their 'accuracy' cannot be compared. The short range game has a very narrow window for perfection. The PPC has that edge right now.

For LR, the PPC would not even make the also rans. Here the BR and its many variants shines. how many 1000yd records does the PPC hold vs the BR? Does that make the PPC less accurate then the BR?

Does it mean that a fork is a better utensil then a spoon?

If we allow cartridge accuracy to be determined by the SAAMI chamber or worse, what a factory ends up with, many very accurate choices would never make the cut. Ever have a factory rifle with a throat so long you couldn't touch the lands with the bullet almost out of the case? Many Rem 700's are blessed with these superb chambers. Is the Rem700 no longer an accurate rifle? Are those cartridges no longer accurate in ALL rifles?

since we are concerned with LR accuracy, we do play with the chamber and cartridge to make it work its best. Just look at the success of the 300Wby at 1000yds. Orig config? not in your life. The Baer, 300AI (all three versions), 30STW all have roots in the good ole H&H/Wby case. With some proper design for its intended uses, this case goes from a big game short range stomper to a LR cannon par excellence. Is the 300 Wby cartridge accurate or not?

So do a little test if you can. Get, borrow, or buy two Stevens 200 or Savage 10/110 rifles, one in 308 and 30-06. They will be in sporter config as heavy barreled '06 are rare. Load each properly, bed each rifle properly, shoot them side by side. I bet they both shoot equally when their favorite loads are used. The only obvious difference is the '06 going a bit faster.

From the shoulder forward, determines accuracy. From the shoulder back, determines horsepower/velocity. Despite what marketing tells you.

Jerry
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  #19  
Old 10-08-2005, 12:39 PM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

Great thread! A lot of good points. I would love to hear from one or more of the gunsmiths that post here. A lot of the smiths will "guarantee" 1/4, 1/3, 1/2,etc. MOA rifles no matter what caliber they are chambering, so I would guess that would help back what Jerry is saying.

I would like to see what the resident gunsmiths have to say. I am learning the sport and enjoy these debates!

Great Post!
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  #20  
Old 10-08-2005, 01:06 PM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

Not a gunsmith,
not a benchrest shooter.
But I think you would find it very interesting to look at some of the 1000 yd matches and what the shooters use and what they win with. It pretty much backs up Jerry Teo's general point of good BC, good velocity and good gunsmith being very important. I think it also takes some skill at the loading bench and on the trigger.
Lots of belted cartrdges used in those matches which are supposed to be inherently inaccurate ( I think they are sized to head space on the shoulder not the belt).
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  #21  
Old 10-08-2005, 10:09 PM
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Re: Most \"Inherently Accurate\" Cartridges

There is a big differance between 100 yard accuracy and 1000 yard accuracy. Lots of smiths can build rifles that can produce 1/2 MOA or less at 100 yards but none can promise that they will perform the same MOA standards at 1K. Yes is also takes much shooter skill but it also takes more than a 100 yard performer to make 1/2 MOA at 1K, such as an "inherhently accurate" cartridge.

I have had several Remmy 788's in 308 and trust me the specs on those chambers was much less than "ideal", the stocks were very nasty and yet those rifles shot very respectable at 1K. As good as 1/2 MOA. If you can turn me to a 30-06 just as nasty and it still shoots the same as those nasty old 788's I will buy into every case as being equal.

[ QUOTE ]
The PPC and BR have very different applications so their 'accuracy' cannot be compared. The short range game has a very narrow window for perfection. The PPC has that edge right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those 2 cases are nearly identical and are in fact used for the same purpose. One case is slightly bigger such as the same in the 308/30-06 debate. I am just curious as to why 1 has dominated the bench scene and not the other, or why dont we see 50-50%??

Trust me I do believe that if the cream of the crop components are used and a GOOD smith has been employed, most any cartridge has got lots of potential even at the 1K line, including the 30-06. In most ways I would have to agree with Jerry. Yes I still belive to some extent some more than others are more inherently accurate and I am not here to try and change Jerry's mind. Jerry, like me has lived experiances that has drawn him to his conclusions and I have done the same. I think this is cool here that we can learn from eachother and think on this with an open mind and if we all dont agree on every detail, who cares? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] We can dissagree and see eachothers point at the same time. This truly is a site unlike the others! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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