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This & That....A Layman's Long Range Rifle?

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Unread 02-08-2002, 03:37 PM
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Washington & Arizona
Posts: 8
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Howdy Tom,

My rifle was a Rem 700 BDL with a factory
26" barrel, this was in 96. This at the time
was a special batch of rifles that were made
by Rem, I believe 300 were made. The stock
had a oil finish.
I used my Crony and the clubs Oeler to get
my velocities.
I used nothing but 7828 powder
82.5 for 165s
80 for 180s
78 for 200s
76 for 220s

as I stated my C.O.L. was 3.560, I long
throated it to take advantage of the long
Reminton Action.
I believe that the 7828 liked the room that
it had in the case and I stumbled on to a
load that gave me surprising velocities.
I shot some factory loads in it as well.
With the long throat it acted as a freebore
and gave the factory rounds (surprising to me
at the time)a whole lot higher speed.
I used this Rifle on a Arizona Elk hunt
the following year. I was hunting unit 8
west of Willaims. A bad snow storm had just
hit the first day of the season, by the second day it had cleared up and left some
nice tracking snow on the ground. That afternoon I cut some track and followed it
to a canyon (in rimrock country). I spotted some elk a good 1000 yards
away. Boyd's and other speed of things, I should say. But not mine at the time. Anyway,
I stalked within a about a dozen elk on a
hillside. Half were beded and asleep. The distance I thought was about 400 (my rifle
was sighted in at 300 with 200 NPs). I set
up a rest and placed the cross hairs on the
top of the elks back, touched off and seen
that the bullet hit as the elks feet. What
is wild is that not an elk moved! They all
just stood there or stayed beded. I put the
top of the bottom post on the elks lungs and
touched off, still a low shot, finally I put
the top of the bottom post on the top of its
back. That one connected and he dropped on the spot. The other elk just kind of wandered
around till I came out of my hide and started
toward them, then they busted for safer haven. I have to figure I was at around
600 yards or more. My brother was taking video at the time and its really neat to hear the shot then a nice pause, then a WOP.

As to any doubt on the velocities I stated, I
have none whatsover. The person I sold the
rifle too experienced the same.
There is dried elk blood from my elk on the rifles magazine floor plate, he won't clean it off.
He thinks it brings him good luck.
So far it has.

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Unread 02-08-2002, 06:49 PM
Posts: n/a
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Bob, after reading your post on your long range elk shot something is alittle wrong. If you were using your relaods say 180 gr at 3300fps and sight-in 1.5" high at 100 you should be about dead on at 500 yds. If that elk was at 600 yds your talking about a bullet dropping over 60" with your 1st shot if it the bullet hit below his feet as you said. Something doesn't add up. I've been long range shooting since the 60's before it became the thing to do and was glad to see some of the first programs out so I could see if the bullet did drop like they firgured. I think alot of the 1000 yd BR guys use programs now for bullet drop and if you cam figure the wind out it will help with bullet drift on mph. We have a 400 yd range in Pueblo, Co that I shoot at and we can also shoot 100,200 and 300 yd on the same firing line so give a good chance to compare bullet drop and my program allows me to plug in Elevation. We also have a public range over where I hunt and they have a 300 yd so I can double check everything. I got real hook on computer shooting about 12 yrs ago and after 24 yrs of hunting in Co I've heard just about everything you can hear and seen alot. If you were shooting 180 300 win bullets at about what velocity they should be your bullet would of dropped about what you are talking about shooting at that elk. I think maybe you should revisit those velocity. Just no way a 300 Win mag will get those velocity with a 180 bullet out of a factory barrel. You need alittle more case than what the 300 has to get 3300fps your almost into 300 ultra velocity. I just call it like it is and if some don't like well so be it. If the powers to be want to pull me from this message board it's alright but sombody has to say something about this post or those tales will get long. Some newbie would read that post and think that load would be ok and he more than likely get hurt. I tell you what i'll post this reply and pull myself.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 09:19 PM
Gold Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 806
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Any thoughts on a Savage, either the 12BVSS (short action repeater), 112BVSS (long-action repeater), or 112BVSS-S (long-action single-shot)?? I too have been interested in a long(er) range gun, partially for fun/target shooting, and also perhaps for hunting. I'm pretty much a wuss about recoil, though, so I've been leaning towards the SA model in .308 Win. Another shooter locally recently picked up a 112BVSS-S in .300 Win Mag, and had a newer style Vais brake put on it, and says it recoils about like a .243 Win now.

I don't have kids in college yet, but union contract negotiations will be going on over the next 16-18 months, so I can't afford to be spending the world on 'extras' in case things go sub-optimal, if you know what I mean. I can squeeze ou a little extra here-n-there, though [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Also, I already have a 'spare' Leupold 6.5-20x50mm LR scope w/ a target dot reticle, though I might swap that over to my 40XB-KS in .220 Swift, and make the 8.5-25x50mm LR (medium duplex reticle) available.


[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: milanuk ]
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Unread 02-08-2002, 10:30 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,757
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Hello Tom

I have to agree that the velocity is not at 3300 FPS and that explanes the amount of drop.

Please refigure your 1 1/2" high at 100 yards statement. I think that's off quite a bit if I read that correctly.

If the 180 Gr bullet (Gameking for instance) with a BC of .545 was 1 1/2" high at 100 yards and at 7000 feet elevation was shot at 3300 FPS you will be dead on target at 275 Yards, NOT 500 yards.

Without making any other scope settings,
At 300 yards you will be -1.22" low, at 400 yards you will be -8.83" low, at 500 yards you will be -21.17" low, at 600 yards you will be -38.74" low. Check your ballistics program. I just ran three seperate programs.
This is with no other changes other then being 1 1/2" high at 100 yards to start with.

Wouldn't want a newbie to read that his rifle will shoot that flat at 500 yards with only being 1 1/2" high at 100 yards. That's simply not factual or ballisticly possible with that bullet and even that speed.

I too have been LR and ultra LR hunting for many years, especially in your fine State.

I'm not sure of how many MOA is on the original posters scope verticle reticle, top and bottom spacing. I click to all yardages and don't trust a rangefinder scope because of the distance we shoot.

If the above ballstics are close to what he shot, this could explane why he was low, but not 60" low. About 38.74" would have been closer to the fact of what it should have been.

Darryl Cassel
Darryl Cassel
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Unread 02-09-2002, 03:00 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mukilteo, WA
Posts: 1,092
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Darryl's right Tom H, you need a new ballistics program... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] With a 180 MK at sea level, he'd need to sight in 7.34" high at 100 to be on at 500.

While those velocities are high, they are definately not unbelievable. Fast barrel, good brass? I too have gotten 3300 fps from the 300 Win in my 26" A-bolt with one particular 180. But I did have some nice ejector marks...one of those "load them in the winter, shoot them in the summer"-type deals. The funny thing is that those three rounds that averaged 3300 over the chronograph went into the smallest group my rifle ever fired. Well, hell, I'll post it:

I guess some rifles like it hot?

Anyway, I've found bullet design makes a big difference. I could push these way over 3200 with no pressure signs. With a Barnes XBT I could not get 3200 without excessive pressure. With X flat bases, I could barely get over 3100, max.

If 3300 is max RUM velocity for a 180 then I need to call my gunsmith and tell him to stop! 50% increase in recoil for 100 fps is NOT worth it. You can buy factory ammo for the 300 Weatherby rated for 3300 fps--from a case with 13 grains or so less capacity.

BTW, my A-Bolt had a fairly long throat and I modified my magazine to let me seat the bullets way out there. That alone probably gained 5 grains or so powder capacity depending upon bullet weight.
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Unread 02-09-2002, 07:22 PM
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wa
Posts: 3
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Hello boys, I'm at home now and had to enter
under Robert.

Tom did you read that I was using 200 Nps
at 3,000 fps on that hunt? how about you
Darryl? I was sighted in at 300 yards dead
on. As far a how far I was, I'm guessing at
best. I put the top of the bottom post on
the elk's back and touched off.
Sorry you cant believe I can get 3,300 with
a factory 26". You say you cant get that
much powder in a 300 winnie case, well no
duh. That's why I long throated it and
seated the bullets out so I could put more
of a slower 300 powder in.
It seems to me Tom you were asking me for
my loads so I gave them to you.
Darryl, IF you don't want people telling
how much they put in a case, then just say
so. I 'll conform.

I enterd this sight using my real name, in
believing that A Man's name is only as good
as the charachter he displays.
If I need Charchter reference's why dont
you call up Ken Howell. I've known Ken since 1978 and have had dinner with him a few time's in Prescott,Az
You can also call or email my
former Employer Greg and his father Jack
Warne of Kimber of where I worked in the front office and did ballistic work for them.

Frankly I could care less if it was 500, 600
or a 1000 yards away. That shot was a long
ways away for me. I'm just telling it like
it was.
I'll be glad to send you a 300 load and you can pull the bullet and see how much powder is in it.

So put up or shut up.
I can tell it like it is as well.

You can call me anytime you want during
the week.
800-228-3420, goes right to my desk.

Bob Metcalf
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Unread 02-09-2002, 09:11 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,757
Re: This & That....A Layman\'s Long Range Rifle?

Bob Metcalf or whoever you sign in as.

Maybe you should be refering your comments to Tom H instead of me.

If you read back over what I posted, it was to "Tom H" (NOT YOU) concerning his written mistake as per 1 1/2 " high at 100 would put you on target at 500 yards. This was a mistake ballistically. For a newbie reading this, was my concern. I didn't say anything concerning HOW much powder was in your case or what it holds. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.
You have the wrong person here.

I did not mention your name except I agreed with Tom that, I didn't think you were at 3300 with the bullet you used while hunting and maybe that's why the LOW hits.
If you are at 3300, that's great. You just said you got the 3300 with a 180 but hunted with a 200 gr NP didn't you?
Another poster came on and corrected that velocity with a target fired. He did get 3300 with a 180 gr and with pressure signs.

I also mentioned that I was not familar with your scope as I click to all my yardages.

We were only trying to figure out the question "you" asked as per the problems "you" encountered with the low hits.

If you don't want your questions answered or someone to try and figure out the problems, please don't ask them?

We were only trying to help you figure out YOUR problem. Sorry you took it the wrong way especially when I didn't even mention your name, Did I?

As far as who you know, many of us know very well known people and are close friends with them.

If you want a private conversation concerning YOUR problem with the low hits or anything else, my phone number is---814-546-2674

Darryl Cassel
Darryl Cassel
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