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Hornady A-Max

 
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2011, 02:00 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
Proper placement with the right bullet and adequate energy would have made the difference.

Already answered. Long ago. After watching several hogs and deer run off after being hit right in the bread basket leaving us with long and difficult tracks because there was so little bleeding due to the fact the bullet never exited I learned my lesson.

Pardon me I was looking at the SST. There is no 140gr interbond in 6.5.

You know I don't even carry a ballistics calculator or weather meter and I manage to kill much smaller targets than deer at that range and beyond with the .260 shooting 130gr interbonds and siroccos so I don't see where such a crutch is necessary. If you are however using field calculations then having the proper variables entered eliminates the guess work.
So? That's why you have a ballistics program.
I can only think of one word that is really fitting for the use of a 6.5 at over 1,00yds on anything bigger than coyotes with any bullet, and that is "irresponsible".

No the key is using a bullet that is going to perform consistently and reliably at any range you pick within the practical limitatios of the caliber.

Before I'd use the Amax in the scenarios you describe I'd either go to the Scirocco or Berger Hunting VLD's. Much better choices of bullets.

I've got a very large 3x4 freak of a buck I've been watching for the last few weeks. If The shot presents itself my ambush set up will have me shooting him at between 800-1080yds. If he's under 900 I will use the .260, and if beyond I will use the 300 Rum. Both will be loaded with the Sciroccos and I have 100% confidence that the bullets will do the job even if I get a direct strike on the point of the shoulder.

At the same ranges I'm getting nice 1.5-2" exit holes on coyotes consistently and the doe I shot at 600 two weeks ago with the .260 gave similar results.

Shoot what you want. I don't care, but I will continue to recommend that quality hunting bullets be used in hunting situations to anyone who asks because that is what they are designed for.
Okay, so let me get this straight, I am irresponsible for shooting a deer at 1000 yards with my 260 but you are A-okay at 900 yards with your 260? This considering that my bullet will be flying faster due to the higher BC, allowing for less drop, less drift error, more ft lbs, and more expansion?

I am also irresponsible for shooting a target bullet for long range shots even though they expand better at those distances and cause more damage but you are just fine shooting sirocco's to 900 yards even though the velocity in a 260 is nearly 300 fps below what Swift recommends for proper bullet expansion?

I wonder what all the hunters did before the days of premium bullets where all they had were standard jacketed lead filled bullets. I am surprised my Dad and Granddad ever killed anything.


Shooting hogs, which are about as tough on a bullet as you can get in the US, is completely different than shooting antelope, deer, and even elk in many respects. Not sure I would use that experience to determine performance on thin skinned animals.

In addition, I don't aim for the point of the shoulder nor do I ever want to hit the point of the shoulder. If I do hit there I was way off target. Ideally this happens in a very small percentage of shots, less than 5% for sure. So why would I pick a bullet that may make 5% of my shots possibly more successful instead of choosing a bullet that performs better on 95% of my shots.

Also, do I understand correctly that you do like the VLD hunting bullet, which is designed to blow up internally but don't like the frangbile A-max? The A-max and Berger have more in common IMO than the Berger and premium bullets do, as far as killing performance and bullet performance. The A-max and Berger both shed most of their weight and throw shrapnel in all directions. The benefit the A-max has over the Berger past the velocity limit of 1800-1900 fps is that the A-max will still expand and shed weight well past this 1800 fps where the VLD will not. Here is a good thread regarding shooting a bullet past its velocity limit. Long range elk "mistake"

Finally, you miss one of the biggest reasons that LR hunters use high BC bullets, weather meters, and ballistic programs. It is called error reduction. Call it a crutch if you like but those items all help minimize a significant amount of shooter/shooting error.

There is error in range estimation, wind drift, angle to target, atmospheric conditions, trigger pull, steady hold, proper aim point, updrafts, movement of the animal, and on and on. High BC's and ballistic data helps minimize the potential error in every shot. Sure I can use my ballistic program to calculate drop and drift but all the above mentioned variable adds up to a certain amount of error in every shot and a bullet that shoots flatter and has less drift will eliminate the most amount of potential error. It's not about using a chart or ballistic app, its not about having the cool techie bullets or gear. It is about having all or as close to "all" of your shots being one shot kills. Any error reducing factor I can have in my favor I will take.

We obviously have a very different perspective on LR hunting. Don't get me wrong. There is a valid place for premium hunting bullets. But I think LR guys, especially those new to the sport, should be aware that premium bullets have their negatives just like frangible bullets do. And one of the big negatives are shooting them at LR when their velocity profile is such that proper expansion is unlikely.

Good luck in your shooting friend.
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2011, 03:28 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
Okay, so let me get this straight, I am irresponsible for shooting a deer at 1000 yards with my 260 but you are A-okay at 900 yards with your 260? This considering that my bullet will be flying faster due to the higher BC, allowing for less drop, less drift error, more ft lbs, and more expansion?
Are you having a problem reading today?

"OVER 1,000yards". I'm shooting a bullet at under 900yds with a BC of 571.
Velocity (fps)3000 2833 2673 2518 2368 2223 2083 1949 1820 1697 1581
Energy (ft.-lb.)2598 2317 2062 1830 1618 1427 1253 1096 956 831 722


You are talking about shooting at OVER 1,00yds with a bullet with a BC of .585

Velocity (fps)3000 2837 2680 2529 2382 2240 2103 1971 1844 1723 1608
Energy (ft.-lb.)2798 2502 2233 1987 1764 1560 1375 1208 1057 923 804

The Bullet I have selected has more energy and velocity along with less drop at my max range than the bullet you are suggesting for beyond 1000yds where you are already down to 800ft/lbs of energy. Yes I consider that to be irresponsible.

I am selecting a bullt that is designed to mushroom predicably at that speed/energy and you are choosing one that does nothing predictably or consistently on contact with the game animal at the range you are suggesting it be used.

Yes, I consider that irresponsible.

The AMAX is not a frangible bullet, it's just one that tends to come apart when it hits anthing solid and does so in unpredicable ways. Frangible bullets are designed to break up in specifically predicatable ways.


Quote:
I am also irresponsible for shooting a target bullet for long range shots even though they expand better at those distances and cause more damage but you are just fine shooting sirocco's to 900 yards even though the velocity in a 260 is nearly 300 fps below what Swift recommends for proper bullet expansion?
I draw my line in the sand because at 900yds, I have reached the limit of what Swift recommends velocity wise for this bullet.
Quote:
I wonder what all the hunters did before the days of premium bullets where all they had were standard jacketed lead filled bullets. I am surprised my Dad and Granddad ever killed anything.
Simple they didnt' shoot a hell of a lot of medium and large game beyond 500yds and when they did they used massive bullets that due to their mass delivered enough energy on target to get the job done. We've had great premium hunting bullets however since the fifties.

Quote:
Shooting hogs, which are about as tough on a bullet as you can get in the US, is completely different than shooting antelope, deer, and even elk in many respects. Not sure I would use that experience to determine performance on thin skinned animals.
Yes they are, that is why I didn't base my deicions based solely on hogs at long range. As I stated most of the were not shot beyond 450yds.
Quote:
In addition, I don't aim for the point of the shoulder nor do I ever want to hit the point of the shoulder. If I do hit there I was way off target. Ideally this happens in a very small percentage of shots, less than 5% for sure. So why would I pick a bullet that may make 5% of my shots possibly more successful instead of choosing a bullet that performs better on 95% of my shots.
If you wish to claim that you are a consistent sub MOA 1,000yds Plus shooter under actual hutning conditions go right ahead.
Quote:
Also, do I understand correctly that you do like the VLD hunting bullet, which is designed to blow up internally but don't like the frangbile A-max? The A-max and Berger have more in common IMO than the Berger and premium bullets do, as far as killing performance and bullet performance.
Umm no the VLD Berger has a much heavier jacket than the AMAX which is tapered in it's thickness from the opening to about mid length very similar to the interbond and scirocco; though not as heavy. It is not designed to blow up until after it has penetrated deeply unlike the AMAX which is designed to break up on contact.

From Berger's own website.
Hunting Bullets

Quote:
The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3” before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13” to 15” long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don’t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456.
Quote:

Quote:
The A-max and Berger both shed most of their weight and throw shrapnel in all directions. The benefit the A-max has over the Berger past the velocity limit of 1800-1900 fps is that the A-max will still expand and shed weight well past this 1800 fps where the VLD will not. Here is a good thread regarding shooting a bullet past its velocity limit. Long range elk "mistake"
No the Amax typically comes apart completely losing over 50% of it's mass before even penetrating the rib cage.

Now once again you are moving the bar changing not only the game but the caliber to buttress a failed point.

Quote:
Finally, you miss one of the biggest reasons that LR hunters use high BC bullets, weather meters, and ballistic programs. It is called error reduction. Call it a crutch if you like but those items all help minimize a significant amount of shooter/shooting error.
No the crutch is using a target bullet that is not designed for this purpose because of it's higher BC in spite of it's bein a poor design choice for killing game reliably.
Quote:
There is error in range estimation, wind drift, angle to target, atmospheric conditions, trigger pull, steady hold, proper aim point, updrafts, movement of the animal, and on and on. High BC's and ballistic data helps minimize the potential error in every shot. Sure I can use my ballistic program to calculate drop and drift but all the above mentioned variable adds up to a certain amount of error in every shot and a bullet that shoots flatter and has less drift will eliminate the most amount of potential error. It's not about using a chart or ballistic app, its not about having the cool techie bullets or gear. It is about having all or as close to "all" of your shots being one shot kills. Any error reducing factor I can have in my favor I will take.
The higher BC of the target bullet will not grant forgiveness for errors.
Quote:
We obviously have a very different perspective on LR hunting. Don't get me wrong. There is a valid place for premium hunting bullets. But I think LR guys, especially those new to the sport, should be aware that premium bullets have their negatives just like frangible bullets do. And one of the big negatives are shooting them at LR when their velocity profile is such that proper expansion is unlikely.

Good luck in your shooting friend.
My perspective is a simple one. I don't use a hamer for an axe, nor a chainsaw to carve turkeys. I like one shot kills at any range with minimal wastage and nice through and through shots that cause massive bleeding externally so that when one must start tracking there's something to actually follow, and which ensures a much shorter track.

I've also learned the hard way through experience that when we exceed the purposed design capability of bullets and firearms the game we seek is what suffers.
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  #45  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:13 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
Are you having a problem reading today?

"OVER 1,000yards". I'm shooting a bullet at under 900yds with a BC of 571.
Velocity (fps)3000 2833 2673 2518 2368 2223 2083 1949 1820 1697 1581
Energy (ft.-lb.)2598 2317 2062 1830 1618 1427 1253 1096 956 831 722


You are talking about shooting at OVER 1,00yds with a bullet with a BC of .585

Velocity (fps)3000 2837 2680 2529 2382 2240 2103 1971 1844 1723 1608
Energy (ft.-lb.)2798 2502 2233 1987 1764 1560 1375 1208 1057 923 804

The Bullet I have selected has more energy and velocity along with less drop at my max range than the bullet you are suggesting for beyond 1000yds where you are already down to 800ft/lbs of energy. Yes I consider that to be irresponsible.

I am selecting a bullt that is designed to mushroom predicably at that speed/energy and you are choosing one that does nothing predictably or consistently on contact with the game animal at the range you are suggesting it be used.

Yes, I consider that irresponsible.

The AMAX is not a frangible bullet, it's just one that tends to come apart when it hits anthing solid and does so in unpredicable ways. Frangible bullets are designed to break up in specifically predicatable ways.


I draw my line in the sand because at 900yds, I have reached the limit of what Swift recommends velocity wise for this bullet.
Simple they didnt' shoot a hell of a lot of medium and large game beyond 500yds and when they did they used massive bullets that due to their mass delivered enough energy on target to get the job done. We've had great premium hunting bullets however since the fifties.

Yes they are, that is why I didn't base my deicions based solely on hogs at long range. As I stated most of the were not shot beyond 450yds.If you wish to claim that you are a consistent sub MOA 1,000yds Plus shooter under actual hutning conditions go right ahead.
Umm no the VLD Berger has a much heavier jacket than the AMAX which is tapered in it's thickness from the opening to about mid length very similar to the interbond and scirocco; though not as heavy. It is not designed to blow up until after it has penetrated deeply unlike the AMAX which is designed to break up on contact.

From Berger's own website.
Hunting Bullets




No the Amax typically comes apart completely losing over 50% of it's mass before even penetrating the rib cage.

Now once again you are moving the bar changing not only the game but the caliber to buttress a failed point.

No the crutch is using a target bullet that is not designed for this purpose because of it's higher BC in spite of it's bein a poor design choice for killing game reliably.
The higher BC of the target bullet will not grant forgiveness for errors.
My perspective is a simple one. I don't use a hamer for an axe, nor a chainsaw to carve turkeys. I like one shot kills at any range with minimal wastage and nice through and through shots that cause massive bleeding externally so that when one must start tracking there's something to actually follow, and which ensures a much shorter track.

I've also learned the hard way through experience that when we exceed the purposed design capability of bullets and firearms the game we seek is what suffers.
Where does Swift suggest fps in the 1600's for proper expansion? I have talked to them personally and they have mentioned the 1900+ range. Scirocco II - Bullets without equal! Maybe I have missed a change in their bullet design?

And what am I missing, based off the numbers given in your last post you are 1697 fps and 831 ft lbs at 900 yards. I would be at 1608 fps and 804 ft lbs at 1000 yards. So there is 89 fps and 27 ft lbs between responsible and irresponsible? Now that is drawing a line! Past 500 yards A-max bullets don't blow up and often get complete penetration on deer and antelope in 6.5,7mm and 30 cal.

I think we are finally getting to the point where I can see why we are so far off on this. You are calling shots at 450 yards and closer long range and I don't call a shot LR until it is past 600 yards. Ya, I wouldn't shoot a magnum gun with A-max's at close range shots. But this is a LR forum right?

So there are no threads here about Bergers either blowing up on contact or penciling through animals? Just trying to figure out why those potential issues are ok but not with the A-max.

So if my range is off, or there is an unseen updraft or there is a different wind factor you really don't thnk a higher BC bullet will help reduce those errors?

Scot E.
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  #46  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:34 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
Where does Swift suggest fps in the 1600's for proper expansion? I have talked to them personally and they have mentioned the 1900+ range. Scirocco II - Bullets without equal! Maybe I have missed a change in their bullet design?
From your own link when you hover ove the cutaway "The Scirocco II expands reliably at speeds from 1700-3300fps."

Quote:
And what am I missing, based off the numbers given in your last post you are 1697 fps and 831 ft lbs at 900 yards. I would be at 1608 fps and 804 ft lbs at 1000 yards. So there is 89 fps and 27 ft lbs between responsible and irresponsible? Now that is drawing a line! Past 500 yards A-max bullets don't blow up and often get complete penetration on deer and antelope in 6.5,7mm and 30 cal.
Quit trying to rewrite history. I said sub 900yds, you said beyond 1,000yds.


Quote:
I think we are finally getting to the point where I can see why we are so far off on this. You are calling shots at 450 yards and closer long range and I don't call a shot LR until it is past 600 yards. Ya, I wouldn't shoot a magnum gun with A-max's at close range shots. But this is a LR forum right?
No the problem is your intellectual dishonesty. No where did I call 450yds or less long range.

Quote:
So there are no threads here about Bergers either blowing up on contact or penciling through animals? Just trying to figure out why those potential issues are ok but not with the A-max.
You are once again rewriting history. The Berger is not my preferred bullet, but I would use the Berger Hunting VLD before I'd use the Amax.

Quote:
So if my range is off, or there is an unseen updraft or there is a different wind factor you really don't thnk a higher BC bullet will help reduce those errors?

Scot E.
Not at the ranges we are discussing nor the BC's.

Even at 1000yds your kill sone on a deer is 1 MOA high and 2.5 wide.
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  #47  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:38 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

part of the problem with this discussion is that not all a-maxes are created equal.

You need to consider the sectional density of a bullet for a true comparison/performance evaluation.

The 6.5 140 has a much higher SD than the 178 gr 308 or the 162 grain 7mm.

Thus you can predictably say the 6.5 140 will penetrate deeper and hold together better at similar impact speeds on similar targets.

Lumping all bullets of one design into a general class is iresponsible weather it is a b-tip, game king or a-max. All 3 of these are non bonded cup and core bullets, that have killed more game than swift bullets could hit targets.

That dosen't make any of them poor designs or the hunter who uses them irresponsible. The game kings rulled during the time of most cartriges shooting 2600-2900 fps. and under those conditions the cup and core bullets will work great as long as you don't go too light for caliber.

wildrose, a-maxes have there place, that is undeiable, we understand you don't agree.
But don't tell me I'm irresponsible for using them, when I have 13 consecutive one shot kills from 75 to 600 yards. I like many here know what works based on experience.
That my friend you can not take away.
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  #48  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:04 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

Phew WR, you're getting a little heated there!
The 162gn A-Max is probably the most used long range deer bullet in New Zealand, and is one of the quickest killing deer bullets around beyond 400 yards on deer sized game. I personally have seen several hundred deer (too many to count exactly) cleanly and quickly killed at ranges from 300 to 1000 yards with it out of 7mm SAUM's up to 7mm RUM's. It has limitations, especially on say a big Red stag or Wapiti bull inside 300 yards depending on the impact velocity close up, but so too do the controlled expansion bullets at long range. I have again personally seen more deer and Himalayan bull tahr hit and lost at long range from AB's and Sirocco's penciling through a behind the shoulder shot than I've seen lost with A-Max's. If you need to anchor a long range bull tahr right there because if he moves or falls off the ledge he's on, he will be unrecoverable, then the A-Max would be one of the best for the job from what we've experienced in the mountains.
Each is better at a specific task, and why we always run 2 loads in our hunting rifles that will be shot at close and long range. AB's, TTSX's, E-Tips or similar at closer ranges, and A-Max's, Bergers or SMK's at longer ranges. The Berger Hybrids are our current long range favorite due to their awesome BC and good terminal performance, but the minute Hornady comes out with a 300gn 338 A-Max, we'll certainly be giving that a real work out on the long stuff due to its guaranteed long range expansion characteristics.
Horses for courses!
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  #49  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:05 PM
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Re: Hornady A-Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
From your own link when you hover ove the cutaway "The Scirocco II expands reliably at speeds from 1700-3300fps."

Quit trying to rewrite history. I said sub 900yds, you said beyond 1,000yds.


No the problem is your intellectual dishonesty. No where did I call 450yds or less long range.

You are once again rewriting history. The Berger is not my preferred bullet, but I would use the Berger Hunting VLD before I'd use the Amax.

Not at the ranges we are discussing nor the BC's.

Even at 1000yds your kill sone on a deer is 1 MOA high and 2.5 wide.
Friend,

Do we really have to start name calling? Let's try to keep this informative and polite.

Swift's to 1700 is news to me. I have been told 1900 fps+ by Swift and my experience with them shows about the same. The original scirocco's were even higher. I will contact them for more info. The scirocco is one of my favorite hunting bullets in 6.5 and I am planning on building a 338-06AI carry gun around their 338 210 grain bullet. Glad to know I may have missed something.

I am not rewriting history. I originally said that numbers "at" 1000 yards and beyond are even more favorable of the high BC bullets than the 750 yard figures I quoted. That is the only time I mentioned 1000 yards until you started the comparison. My original numbers were based on 750 yards because that distance is approximately where the Interbond, Accubond and Scirocco type controlled expansion bullets (your favorite bullets) hit the 1800-1900 fps range which is typically the cutoff fps for expansion.

Your quote: "Yes they are, that is why I didn't base my decisions based solely on hogs at long range. As I stated most of the were not shot beyond 450yds."
This is where I got the idea that most of your shots with A-max's were under 450 yards. What did I miss? You are basing your experience with A-max's with most shots under 450 yards. Some of those were on hogs. I am simply saying that for the long range game I would not use any data shot on hogs or shot under 450 yards to determine LR success with the A-max bullet.

Again, not rewriting history. You said this, "Before I'd use the Amax in the scenarios you describe I'd either go to the Scirocco or Berger Hunting VLD's. Much better choices of bullets." I was just simply trying to find out why you are theoretically ok with the proven issues with the Berger's either penciling through game or blowing up on the front shoulder but you aren't with the A-max's. Again, I was simply inquiring. Their design IS more similar to the A-max despite them having thicker jackets. Berger's are desinged to come apart and shed 40-80% of their weight. Based off my experience A-max's shed about 50-60% of their weight in 6.5,7mm, and 30 cal. Your original concept of the perfect bullet, Interbond, Accubond, Scirocco, is designed to maintain a very high percentage of their weight.

In the end I think a very good summary of my experience with the A-max can be summed up by reading Michael Eichele's post #11 to this thread. Very good info and I guess I should have left this thread there. Didn't mean for this to get out of hand and turn into a ******* match.

Scot E.
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